Ok,
I am upgrading my DRRI. Now before I get started I've definitely heard the comment before, "don't bother, just save your money and get a vintage deluxe reverb..."
I totally agree with that argument when I hear it being said to somebody who is about to buy a new DRRI and they are inquiring about mods. But for somebody like me, who's had his DRRI for 5 years or so, and has gotten his moneys worth out of 5 times over, it's a bit of a different situation. Also, I really like my amp, I am not one who thinks just because it's a reissue, that it sucks. I certainly don't want to turn this thread into a vintage vs. reissue debate, so I'm digressing a bit. But I have noticed that I'm much more in love with the sound of the amp through my JG-1 cab than just the straight up combo. So I'm thinking on these three things:
1) I am replacing the transformers with Mercury Magnetics, more on that in a bit.
2) I am putting JJ tubes in
3) I want to replace the on board speaker
Here's the thing. I've been recommended the Weber 12f150 as a replacement in my amp, and by all reports that sounds good, but here's the kicker. The output transformer that I am getting has 2-4-8 ohm secondary taps, which is my understanding would allow me to run my 8ohm cab along with my 8ohm on board speaker. So 3-12" speaker operating on stage, which I think would sound pretty killer. I know that I like tone tubby however....
The question, "Would it be mismatched or weird to have a weber speaker run with 2xtone tubby's? Should I just get another tone tubby and have them all operate together?"
We are talking about a $200 difference in the two, so it's decision time. Any input you strange designers have would be greatly appreciated.
Here's my 2 cents and it's not worth that sometimes. I have the exact same set up. I've got 2 TT in my JG-1 and a Weber 75 watt blue alnico in the DR. I like the combo of the three speakers. The Weber has a little more upper mids and a slightly different top end. The MM tranny upgrade is worth the $. I put a MM fat stack in a RI SR and it made all the difference. The multi tap feature is nice but keep in mind the different settings yield slightly different tones. It makes the tranny work more or less depending on how low the load. Hope this helps.
Thanks man, it certainly does help. But it also begs the question, have I been looking at the right speaker. Weber recommended their 12F150 ceramic as "the" speaker for Deluxe Reverb. But it's my impression an alnico would give me a creamier tone. What are some peeps recommendations for speakers on a DRRI? Weber? Cannabis Rex? Something else?
I really liked the Cannabis Rex in my Traynor, had a more-organic feel that a V30 and it responded to dynamics quite well. It really depends on what you're looking for in terms of tone ie - headroom, mids, voicing etc. The EV's brand of speaker has the highest amount of headroom. The Cannabis Rex is mids-heavy to my ear, and in a DR or any fender amp (scooped mids) it can be beneficial if that's the sound you're going after. Since the TT and Cannabis Rex are both Hempcone, and you like the TTs in the JG-1, I'd recommend a Cannabis Rex in your DR; personally at least.
I use Celestion Vintage 30s in my Rivera and Blues Jr. And my Twin has a 4x12" can with 4 Super 65's
I like both. Not gunna try and describe the tone, but I'm very happy with it.
I love my Cannabis (Rex) :P
Not gonna lie, I didn't even read any of these posts...but my answer would be a Tone Tubby, plain and simple. Fucking great speakers. $300.
http://www.tonetubby.com/pdfs/specs/Red-12-8.pdf (http://www.tonetubby.com/pdfs/specs/Red-12-8.pdf)
Quote from: Walker done done on September 16, 2011, 03:09:52 PM
Not gonna lie, I didn't even read any of these posts...but my answer would be a Tone Tubby, plain and simple. Fucking great speakers. $300.
http://www.tonetubby.com/pdfs/specs/Red-12-8.pdf (http://www.tonetubby.com/pdfs/specs/Red-12-8.pdf)
Agree, got a tt alnico in my DR for a few years now (along with tube upgrades no major mods though), been happy ever since, nicely broken in and nails the tone I've spent a while searching for.
Thanks guys, I've nailed it down to either the Cannibis Rex or the Tone Tubby. The CR is approximately 1/3 of the price, but due to experience, I know I will like the Tone Tubby.....but is it 3x as good as the CR???? Huh? Is it?
I have the Cannabis Rex. It is the bomb! You won't be disappointed. Hell you could always sell it if you don't like it. Also, I read that the CR cone is made by Tone Tubby and private labeled for Emminence so it actually IS a Tone Tubby. You win!
Some differences to take into account,
The Tone Tubby I have and talking about is the "Tone Tubby Red Alnico" - Alnico speaker magnet (they also came out with a new one called the " TT Black Alnico"). Which tone tubby are you looking at? the Alnico or the Tone Tubby 40/40 ceramic? I mention this because the Cannabis Rex has a ceramic magnet. Do you want a speaker that has an Alnico or Ceramic magnet? Alnico speakers are usually more expensive, explains the price diff a little.
The red alnico is the one I was looking at, the same one that is in my cab. Also, thank you for clearing up the magnet that it is in the CR. I could not, for the life of me find out what magnet was in it. Also, I read on tgp the TT making the hempcone for Eminence was internet misinformation, but maybe not. The fact that the CR is ceramic, definitely explains the price difference. We'll see, there is a TT on ebay right now for $195ish so, I might go for it. I don't know....
P.S. @ GDCSH-1, your inbox is full dude.
Quote from: ColForbin on September 21, 2011, 08:53:12 PM
The red alnico is the one I was looking at, the same one that is in my cab. Also, thank you for clearing up the magnet that it is in the CR. I could not, for the life of me find out what magnet was in it. Also, I read on tgp the TT making the hempcone for Eminence was internet misinformation, but maybe not. The fact that the CR is ceramic, definitely explains the price difference. We'll see, there is a TT on ebay right now for $195ish so, I might go for it. I don't know....
P.S. @ GDCSH-1, your inbox is full dude.
Thanks for the inbox notice, it was full of those messages sayin my comp has a potential virus, or infectious..something like that lol i guess their spam related, didnt open them, deleted.
But nice man, thats a good price for the tt. You can mix ceramic an alnico speakers as well, tt and rex in your cab.. etc. I haven't heard what it sounds like but I know players do it.
Hey I love my CR but I have some cash to blow and I'm thinking of trying out a Vintage 30.
A vintage 30 is a pretty thin sounding speaker. Why not get something with a heavier dope and more substantial magnet.
Yeah i should just get the Canis Major you recommended a while back. I want smoky hemp and some alnico sizzle.
Quote from: Happyorange27 on July 19, 2012, 03:58:25 PM
Hey I love my CR but I have some cash to blow and I'm thinking of trying out a Vintage 30.
It seems Trey dug the C Blue in with his Deluxe, but the V30 with his Mesa. Either way, they have that upper midrange (presence) punch, the V30 being more aggressive I guess and both having a tighter bottom compared to a lot of American speakers I have tried.
Anyway, funny timing because one of the bands I have been playing with is posing a challenge for my Mesa's "Class A" setting - I had to crank the MV to 6 or 7, so still a bit on tap, but we are inviting a few other musicians to play along with us. I was thinking about switching to Simul-Class, but I would have to get a 100w speaker, so I was looking at:
Weber Alnico Blue Dog 100w
Weber 12V Alnico (Alnico V30 copy!) if they can do 100w
WGS Blackhawk HP (more like an EV SRO, probably not enough presence, but the regular Blackhawk or Black and Blue might be up your alley).
Jensen Blackbird (didn't match my needs IIRC)
Fane AXA12 (or copies, but also might not have the chime).
ASW Elegante (expensive, can't remember what else I didn't like about it)
...
Anyway, I love Alnico and if you wanted to get closer to Trey's tone, I think the upper midrange of British (something like the above) will help, though I love your tone as it is. Also, the Blue Junior IIRC benefited from a bit more low-end (I had a Swamp Thang in mine, similar to a CR) when I had it (made it sound like a physically larger amp), but I wasn't where I am now tonally and with my rig. Just stream of consciousness considerations ;). I was about to make a similar post though.
I can't remember if you can fit Alnico in the Blues Junior? If your not sure, I would ask Weber if they know - you might if you take the cap off the magnet. If so, consider:
Red Fang - love mine, more handling than you need, feel free to try mine if your around, I might sell it if I get a new speaker
Celestion Blue - I think you can get one for $250 or so shipped via Avatar Speakers
And lower power handling ones I mentioned above (ie Weber, WGS, etc.).
If you can't fit Alnico, the Weber Grey Wolf looked interesting and they make all the other speakers I mentioned in Ceramic as well.
dude really^ your not going to get closer to treys tone by using that speaker.
anyway,
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20liberty-1.htm
^ these people make great shit. How about an old EV 12 L with a hemp cone, or just about anything else with some head room.
I've tried a few few and they did better by far than the EVM12L, which kinda feels bland and smokey to me in comparison
you have used a 300 watt ev and felt it was smokey? they are widely touted as the cleanest speaker made.
Not smokey as in distorted. I have an EVM12L sitting right next to me, not being used. One of the old ones with the heavy duty frame, recently reconed with an EV cone. Oh yea, they are 200w though.
yup 200w. but yeah with that much headroom, distortion would need to come from somewhere else man
i wasnt talking about distortion...
Heady thanks for you excessive response (as usual). I haven't tried alnico ever so I want to at least do that. I think Lemon has a C12N in his BJ and it actually sounds really good, but I know that's too bright for me. Yeah I'll see what's up but the BJ can handle a bunch of speakers except for the Blue Dog (too long). That's what she said.
http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=295 (http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=295)
Too much? No point in not going full retard ;)
Yea, I remember reading that BillM thing - sometimes it hits the chassis, sometimes fits, so I guess it depends where the screws are on the baffle of your particular Blues Junior.?. Not worth risking buying one though I suppose.
I wonder if a Celestion Blue would fit in there (only $30 more than the Blue Dog)... When I had Blues Juniors, I was afraid it wouldn't fit (that's what she said / reminds me of my first time)
If it is actually the length, you can take the cap off the magnet. If I were you, I would probably drop a thread on TGP to see what Alnico mag speakers fit in the Blues Junior.
PS - at risk of making another excessive post ;):
As I further considered switching from Class A to Simul-Class and getting a new speaker with great power handling, I realized...
15w Class A (maybe 25-35w according to Mesa) to 75w Simul-Class might only be a 30% increase in amplitude (10x more wattage = 2x amplitude, in my understanding).
The Red Fang is rated 103db sensitivity, while the high powered speakers are mostly around 99-100db, which sounds half as loud.
Thus switching to higher wattage and a less efficient speaker, I could actually decrease my ultimate amplitude!!
Anyway, I thought that was interesting, not sure if those numbers are accurate, but my EVM12L at 100db sensitivity is very noticeably quieter than my Red Fang (which is said to be rated slightly more efficient than it really is), and switching between Class-A and Simul-Class makes a smaller difference in volume. Also, I like the Simul-Class setting - it still has the midrange and compression of EL34's running as Triodes, but also has the articulation of the 6L6's.
I meant thorough not excessive; I like your long posts. I just purchased a standby switch and in octal conversion kit so that I can finally get onto some bigger output tubes. I will be able to install 6V6 JJ tubes and that sounds like it's going to be pretty cool. I have to pack up the PCB board and drill some precise holes so I have to get out my surgical mask.
Quote from: Happyorange27 on July 21, 2012, 09:09:43 AM
I meant thorough not excessive; I like your long posts. I just purchased a standby switch and in octal conversion kit so that I can finally get onto some bigger output tubes. I will be able to install 6V6 JJ tubes and that sounds like it's going to be pretty cool. I have to pack up the PCB board and drill some precise holes so I have to get out my surgical mask.
Thats awesome.
My first thought was how different will it be from a Deluxe... while most Fenders have a lot in common with each other, I suspect it will still have a lot unique in comparison.
Yeah I bet it will have a lot in common with a deluxe. That is the goal. I've heard nothing but good things about this conversion and all of the other mods that Billm presents. my quest never ends with modifying this blues Junior. always a rewarding journey.
Anyone more sane than us would suggest you ought to buy a deluxe, but we both know that would just ruin (in my head that was pronounced like Stewie from Family Guy) the fun. I wish I was as good with a soldering iron - I just tried to swap some Lollar Imperials into my guitar (as well as putting in a new tone and volume pot with slightly different wiring) and then took it directly to my amp tech to have him fix it... it was a bit more complex than my ability, plus I find I am better at starting from scratch than working on something someone else already started.
On the note of speakers, the production manager from WGS just contacted me and offered to build a custom speaker (I guess he me asking about his speakers on TGP). The Blackhawk HP has a lower resonance cone that gives it a voice more like an EV SRO rather than a Celestion Blue / Gold, so he offered to build me a hybrid between the normal Blackhawk and the HP (high power) version, basically a 100w Celestion Gold.
That sounds bad ass about the speak. The Blackhawks I heard was real dark sounding so a hybrid would be a good idea.
Yeah I love tweaking my amp and at some point I will have invested more than a Deluxe would cost. But you can't put a price on experience, knowledge and understanding of what every element truly does in the amp. I like the Stewie reference.
Was the Blackhawk you heard the High Power or the original, 50w one? Was it dark compared to an American speaker or other British ones like the C Blue?
Here is where I heard it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Yea, I have seen that. My favorite was the Blue followed by the V30, Red Fang and Gold, all pretty close to each other.
However that video does not have the WGS Blackhawk in it - you are probably referring to the Jensen Blackbird, which is pretty scooped I think, big bottom end.
these guys on ebay usually have some interesting speakers ready to go
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-ROLA-based-custom-PMR-hemp-fiber-NICE-/170840108208?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c6dd2cb0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-WHITE-HEMP-PULP-Eminence-CTS-BIG-MAGNET-/170878985488?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c92e6510
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-Eminence-based-HEMPOPOTAMUS-series-/170840108542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c6dd2dfe
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-WHITE-HEMP-PULP-CLEVELAND-AlNiCo-MAGNET-Ultra-SMOOOOOOTH-/170878994349?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c92e87ad
I bought a vintage 30 based speaker off them a while back. 80oz magnet, 2.5" voice coil, hemp cone. It sounds really good in the hot rod deluxe I put it in.
Sweet D. And they are within driving distance for me. Really like what they have to offer. GAS!!!
Just got a custom speaker from WGS; a standard Blackhawk with a 100w voice coil, essentially similar to a Celestion Gold with a 100w power handling, unlike their Blackhawk HP that has a different resonance cone and a 3in dust cap, sounding more like an EV SRO. Dean, the production manager at WGS had messaged me and offered to build it, we talked on the phone last saturday night, it shipped two days after I gave the go-ahead - awesome service, not to mention a 30 day return policy!
Their site says the speakers take about 24 hours to break-in and it definitely still needs it; typical stiff sound/feel and harsher top-end - I rolled my presence off (it was at 3 on the knob) - though I hadn't replaced my baffle either, which will dampen the treble once I put it back on. However, my initial impression is that it really hits the mark! It has a more complex midrange timbre that other Celestion Gold/Blue clones seem to lack - the Red Fang was complex, but more just crange-y, the Weber Blue Dog was more glassy maybe. Anyway, the Blackhawk seems to have that swirly, 3D midrange that people like about Celestion's builds.
The low-end it pretty tight, pretty close to the RF or BD (had a 50w ceramic) even though it doubles the power handling. Its rated at 99db sensitivity, so it is a little quieter than the RF (rated 103, but thats probably a db or two high), BD (not rated, similar to RF though) or Celestions (rated 100db).
Looking forward to breaking this speaker in, but I think its a keeper and I hope they make it part of their standard line of products! Hopefully I will have an update soon when it breaks in cuz I am only decent at guessing how a speaker will sound after that.
Oh yea, I also got a Remin Tri-Kart 750 hand-truck/dolly that seems pretty sweet. Their site and advertising is pretty crappy, but it has decent size wheels, feels very sturdy, comes with bungy straps that seem they will hold the MKIII in place, tilt-back wheels that keeps the amp at a nice 45 degree (or so) angle, and folds up pretty nicely; the handle goes down about the same height as the amp and the tilt-back wheels tuck in tight so I can just toss the whole thing in my trunk. The only problem is the feet of my Mesa don't fit perfectly on the bottom and the plugs for the effect loop in the back line up with the frame of the dolly, so I have the amp shifted slightly to one side - still seems sturdy, but I'll have to see if I keep it.
UPDATE:
Since this post I have: played the classic rock radio station through the speaker for about 24 hours, practiced at home a couple times for a few hours and practiced with my classic rock band for 3 hours. The speaker has broken-in exceptionally well, the top-end has mellowed significantly and the speaker is much less stiff. I would definitely suggest this speaker for someone who wants a 100w power handling speaker similar to a Celestion Blue or Gold. The only competitor is the Weber 100w Alnico Blue Dog, which I think would also be very good (after owning the 50w Ceramic). The other guitarist in the classic rock band noticed the new speaker by the sound and definitely liked it.
Hey everybody, figured I rebump this for another speaker quest. I'm looking to swap out the Classic Clone in my Soul O 45, it's alright but sounds sterile to me as of late. I don't really know what to look for in terms of speakers though, whats new/classic, who uses what, etc. The amp has MM trannys w/ a 4,8, and 16 ohm tap switch, would I be fine ordering any of those configurations? The normal speaker jack on the amp doesn't have an ohm rating on it, and neither does the CC. I'm interested in finding a speaker that won't overdrive, and naturally Trey and Jerry's tone are twp pf my favorites and I would be looking for a similar type of feel from this speaker. Apologies if this has been covered ad nauseum but after rereading this thread I'm interested in opinions new and old still. Thanks for your advice in advance!
My understanding is Jerry used various speakers - and amps - and I am not as versed in his gear, but I would think something classic like an old JBL would be up his alley.
For Trey, you have a few good options that should handle your amp:
Celestion Gold would be fine
Weber 50w Blue Dog would work according to them
Eminence Red Fang is also rated at 50w and I think it would handle it
WGS Blackhawk
You cant go wrong with any of those speakers. They all ought to handle a 45w amp because that type of design (C Gold copies) are generally rated conservatively. I wouldn't worry about the Gold on a 45w amp, Weber says their 50w should also handle 50ws. I never looked into the actual power handling (whether the rating was as conservative as Celestion's rating) for the Blackhawk because I needed their higher (100w) custom option for my Mesa, or the Red Fang, but I know a few people who use the RF on 50 watt amps and I have as well.
However, if you want to be extra safe with power handling, the 75w Weber or WGS 100w Blackhawk (the custom build that I have, which they might, if they haven't yet, start offering in their line of speakers - not the Blackhawk HP!) would be good options. Higher power handling can result in a warmer speaker, however the custom Blackhawk uses the same cone as their lower power handling speaker, just with a 100w voice coil (not sure about what changes between power ratings on the Weber speakers).
Of course, all these speakers are pricey, probably averaging $250 after shipping. They are hard to find used, but you might get lucky, especially since you have multiple resistance (ohm) rating options on the output of your amp. You can also run a 4ohm output into an 8ohm speaker, or an 8ohm output into a 16ohm speaker if need be - it might have a mild effect on tone.
I really loved my Eminence. It has a more aggressive upper midrange than some other options, but has more of a dip right in the center of the midrange (you can see on their frequency plot). I only stopped using it because I needed a higher power handling speaker for my Mesa when using the Simul-Class setting (needed the extra volume from the 2 6L6's).
So now I am using my WGS and I am thrilled with it. Their customer service is also awesome.
Weber's customer service is great too. In fact, both companies are great resources if you have more questions. I preferred my Red Fang over the 50w Ceramic Blue Dog that Weber gave me a while back. However, Weber wasn't clear how well they had broken the speaker in and it was a bit harsh, another 24 hours of break in might have made a big difference, as well as an Alnico magnet.
If you go with the Celestion Gold and can't find a used one, buy through Avatar speakers, great prices!
I do still have my Red Fang and I am not using it. If you wanted to try that out, I would be happy to figure out a price that works for both of us. Also, the Red Fang is the loudest of all of these speakers, rated at 103db (might be rated a little higher than other companies would have rated it) compared to 99 to 100db for the rest of them. Just depends if you want a little extra volume on your amp or or not - I didn't notice much difference compared to my 99.4db WGS, but it was noticeably louder than my EVM12L - probably more of a tonal/perception thing.
Also, Trey used Celestion V30's with his Mesa. It will be more aggressive if you prefer that (I don't know anything about your amp or the toanz your already getting from it). Those are pretty cheap ceramic speakers, they are classic-rock classics, often mixed with Green Backs. If you prefer that route, but want Alnico, I believe both Weber and WGS have that option as well.
Lastly, some people would say it is ridiculous to spend $250 on a speaker, but I think that (the amp in entirety) is one of the most important parts of your tone (more so than guitar and pedals IMO). Despite my tight finances, I think it was worth it to me, but if you just want an upgrade rather than the real deal, there are lots of good options. I love my gear and have been playing out, plus it is the only luxury I spend money on (the rest goes to groceries, beer, rent, my girlfriend and education), so it is worth it to me. The Ceramic Blue Dog is a good option if you want to save $100 on a new speaker though.
Hope this helps get your search started!
Thanks Heady! Your posts are lessons unto themselves. I see that the Red Fang is 30w or is that just another power handling option in addition to the 50w? Although I can agree with you all here in saying that Trey's incredible tone has a lot to do with his speakers, I wouldn't mind looking at something that can get me in the ballpark of Trey but also excels at jazz (warmth and mids) and funkier stuff (clear high end definition) Can the Red Fang do that? I've also tried the Cannabis Rex when I had a Traynor YCV40wr which sounded very nice, but that's my only starting point in terms of using other speakers.. Thanks again for your advice and in any case i'd like to try the Red Fang.. I'll PM you!
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on September 07, 2012, 04:01:32 PM
My understanding is Jerry used various speakers - and amps - and I am not as versed in his gear, but I would think something classic like an old JBL would be up his alley.
For Trey, you have a few good options that should handle your amp:
Celestion Gold would be fine
Weber 50w Blue Dog would work according to them
Eminence Red Fang is also rated at 50w and I think it would handle it
WGS Blackhawk
You cant go wrong with any of those speakers. They all ought to handle a 45w amp because that type of design (C Gold copies) are generally rated conservatively. I wouldn't worry about the Gold on a 45w amp, Weber says their 50w should also handle 50ws. I never looked into the actual power handling (whether the rating was as conservative as Celestion's rating) for the Blackhawk because I needed their higher (100w) custom option for my Mesa, or the Red Fang, but I know a few people who use the RF on 50 watt amps and I have as well.
However, if you want to be extra safe with power handling, the 75w Weber or WGS 100w Blackhawk (the custom build that I have, which they might, if they haven't yet, start offering in their line of speakers - not the Blackhawk HP!) would be good options. Higher power handling can result in a warmer speaker, however the custom Blackhawk uses the same cone as their lower power handling speaker, just with a 100w voice coil (not sure about what changes between power ratings on the Weber speakers).
Of course, all these speakers are pricey, probably averaging $250 after shipping. They are hard to find used, but you might get lucky, especially since you have multiple resistance (ohm) rating options on the output of your amp. You can also run a 4ohm output into an 8ohm speaker, or an 8ohm output into a 16ohm speaker if need be - it might have a mild effect on tone.
I really loved my Eminence. It has a more aggressive upper midrange than some other options, but has more of a dip right in the center of the midrange (you can see on their frequency plot). I only stopped using it because I needed a higher power handling speaker for my Mesa when using the Simul-Class setting (needed the extra volume from the 2 6L6's).
So now I am using my WGS and I am thrilled with it. Their customer service is also awesome.
Weber's customer service is great too. In fact, both companies are great resources if you have more questions. I preferred my Red Fang over the 50w Ceramic Blue Dog that Weber gave me a while back. However, Weber wasn't clear how well they had broken the speaker in and it was a bit harsh, another 24 hours of break in might have made a big difference, as well as an Alnico magnet.
If you go with the Celestion Gold and can't find a used one, buy through Avatar speakers, great prices!
I do still have my Red Fang and I am not using it. If you wanted to try that out, I would be happy to figure out a price that works for both of us. Also, the Red Fang is the loudest of all of these speakers, rated at 103db (might be rated a little higher than other companies would have rated it) compared to 99 to 100db for the rest of them. Just depends if you want a little extra volume on your amp or or not - I didn't notice much difference compared to my 99.4db WGS, but it was noticeably louder than my EVM12L - probably more of a tonal/perception thing.
Also, Trey used Celestion V30's with his Mesa. It will be more aggressive if you prefer that (I don't know anything about your amp or the toanz your already getting from it). Those are pretty cheap ceramic speakers, they are classic-rock classics, often mixed with Green Backs. If you prefer that route, but want Alnico, I believe both Weber and WGS have that option as well.
Lastly, some people would say it is ridiculous to spend $250 on a speaker, but I think that (the amp in entirety) is one of the most important parts of your tone (more so than guitar and pedals IMO). Despite my tight finances, I think it was worth it to me, but if you just want an upgrade rather than the real deal, there are lots of good options. I love my gear and have been playing out, plus it is the only luxury I spend money on (the rest goes to groceries, beer, rent, my girlfriend and education), so it is worth it to me. The Ceramic Blue Dog is a good option if you want to save $100 on a new speaker though.
Hope this helps get your search started!
No prob man - I still have a lot to learn about speakers, and definitely have a list of ones I would like to try for curiosity and knowledge-sake, but I can't imagine not using one of the ones I mentioned in my post above at this point because of the tonal qualities I'll get to below.
The old Red Fang was listed as 30w because it was only competing with the Celestion Blue. When the Celestion Gold came out, Eminence changed the rating to 50w, but I don't believe they actually changed the speaker, it was just originally rated very very conservatively. If you check their site, it is rated 50w. If you crank a 45w amp, it is most ideal to use a speaker rated 20% higher (some people even say more than 20%), which would be 54w (obviously no one rates a speaker 54w power handling). However, Celestion speakers and most clones handle what they are rated at (ie, a speaker rated to handle 50w ought to handle a 50w amp). If the amp is pretty clean, you can almost always use a speaker rated to handle the same wattage as the amp because the ratings are for clean tone (obviously if you use a Master Volume, you can get the amp to overdrive before you reach the full watt/power of the amp). So you just have to decide what works best for you - like I said, if your cranking your amp, 60-75w might give you more comfort/less anxiety, if your not cranking it, 50+w, I think, would be okay.
The Cannabis Rex is a great speaker, but very different from the ones I mentioned above. I was looking at it a while back for more of an American Classic Rock tone and I went with the Swamp Thang, which I thought was similar, but more complex and aggressive sounding compared to the C Rex, which is dampened in the treble and smoothed out a bit by the hemp. Those American speakers have a ton of bass, especially compared to most British-voiced speakers and the C-Blue and speakers it inspired are very much in that British voicing: tight bottom and not a ton treble, but nice chime. If you want a lot of treble (and bass for that matter), a British speaker might not be ideal, but I like the tight bottom cuz it keeps you from getting muddy as well as exchanging chime for treble since it is smoother, which goes along with Trey's use of the TS>Comp.
Obviously Trey does some jazz and funk, so you can hear how his speakers perform with those styles (I think sometimes he turns on the Leslie or Vibe for a little treble on some funky stuff, but I don't pay that much attention to his use of modulation). I feel like I can navigate all styles with the electronics on my guitar and my playing style. Even for funky stuff, Trey keeps his tone really pretty dark - surprisingly so if you try to match it when your amp is quiet, but once you turn up or record, you can see it works and keeps his guitar sounding as smooth.
Also, I don't know anything about your amp, so you have to consider that too.
Quote from: fulltone1989 on September 10, 2012, 10:20:45 AM
Thanks Heady! Your posts are lessons unto themselves. I see that the Red Fang is 30w or is that just another power handling option in addition to the 50w? Although I can agree with you all here in saying that Trey's incredible tone has a lot to do with his speakers, I wouldn't mind looking at something that can get me in the ballpark of Trey but also excels at jazz (warmth and mids) and funkier stuff (clear high end definition) Can the Red Fang do that? I've also tried the Cannabis Rex when I had a Traynor YCV40wr which sounded very nice, but that's my only starting point in terms of using other speakers.. Thanks again for your advice and in any case i'd like to try the Red Fang.. I'll PM you! Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on September 07, 2012, 04:01:32 PM
My understanding is Jerry used various speakers - and amps - and I am not as versed in his gear, but I would think something classic like an old JBL would be up his alley.
For Trey, you have a few good options that should handle your amp:
Celestion Gold would be fine
Weber 50w Blue Dog would work according to them
Eminence Red Fang is also rated at 50w and I think it would handle it
WGS Blackhawk
You cant go wrong with any of those speakers. They all ought to handle a 45w amp because that type of design (C Gold copies) are generally rated conservatively. I wouldn't worry about the Gold on a 45w amp, Weber says their 50w should also handle 50ws. I never looked into the actual power handling (whether the rating was as conservative as Celestion's rating) for the Blackhawk because I needed their higher (100w) custom option for my Mesa, or the Red Fang, but I know a few people who use the RF on 50 watt amps and I have as well.
However, if you want to be extra safe with power handling, the 75w Weber or WGS 100w Blackhawk (the custom build that I have, which they might, if they haven't yet, start offering in their line of speakers - not the Blackhawk HP!) would be good options. Higher power handling can result in a warmer speaker, however the custom Blackhawk uses the same cone as their lower power handling speaker, just with a 100w voice coil (not sure about what changes between power ratings on the Weber speakers).
Of course, all these speakers are pricey, probably averaging $250 after shipping. They are hard to find used, but you might get lucky, especially since you have multiple resistance (ohm) rating options on the output of your amp. You can also run a 4ohm output into an 8ohm speaker, or an 8ohm output into a 16ohm speaker if need be - it might have a mild effect on tone.
I really loved my Eminence. It has a more aggressive upper midrange than some other options, but has more of a dip right in the center of the midrange (you can see on their frequency plot). I only stopped using it because I needed a higher power handling speaker for my Mesa when using the Simul-Class setting (needed the extra volume from the 2 6L6's).
So now I am using my WGS and I am thrilled with it. Their customer service is also awesome.
Weber's customer service is great too. In fact, both companies are great resources if you have more questions. I preferred my Red Fang over the 50w Ceramic Blue Dog that Weber gave me a while back. However, Weber wasn't clear how well they had broken the speaker in and it was a bit harsh, another 24 hours of break in might have made a big difference, as well as an Alnico magnet.
If you go with the Celestion Gold and can't find a used one, buy through Avatar speakers, great prices!
I do still have my Red Fang and I am not using it. If you wanted to try that out, I would be happy to figure out a price that works for both of us. Also, the Red Fang is the loudest of all of these speakers, rated at 103db (might be rated a little higher than other companies would have rated it) compared to 99 to 100db for the rest of them. Just depends if you want a little extra volume on your amp or or not - I didn't notice much difference compared to my 99.4db WGS, but it was noticeably louder than my EVM12L - probably more of a tonal/perception thing.
Also, Trey used Celestion V30's with his Mesa. It will be more aggressive if you prefer that (I don't know anything about your amp or the toanz your already getting from it). Those are pretty cheap ceramic speakers, they are classic-rock classics, often mixed with Green Backs. If you prefer that route, but want Alnico, I believe both Weber and WGS have that option as well.
Lastly, some people would say it is ridiculous to spend $250 on a speaker, but I think that (the amp in entirety) is one of the most important parts of your tone (more so than guitar and pedals IMO). Despite my tight finances, I think it was worth it to me, but if you just want an upgrade rather than the real deal, there are lots of good options. I love my gear and have been playing out, plus it is the only luxury I spend money on (the rest goes to groceries, beer, rent, my girlfriend and education), so it is worth it to me. The Ceramic Blue Dog is a good option if you want to save $100 on a new speaker though.
Hope this helps get your search started!
Hmm very interesting, I put some KT66's in the Soul-O 45 which gave it more headroom and smoothed out the highs as compared to the 6L6's that were in there earlier. It also increased the wattage a bit, and i'd put it in the 50w range. The Soul-O is a 1x12 45 watt PTP for the most part amp that if I could bet anything it was created as a twin chopped in half with crappier reverb. Gain, Treble, Mid, Bass, Presence, Reverb, and Volume knobs with a parallel fx loop and multi ohm OT. I rarely put any of the controls past 2 o clock on the dial and then use the Presence to adjust overall brightness of the amp - I think it sounds good IMHO. Anyways thats my amp!
I've gotten my hands on a C-Rex from a local player and the shop where I work has a multitude of cabs and 12" I can try out (however a lot of them are greenbacks and V30's) so hopefully over the next week I will have a better idear about what I am looking for!
Nice, so Fendery. I think a few guys here who use Fenders with a tone stack like that keep the mids up high and the bass and treble low or even off. A presence control is really nice too. If you get the volume that low, a 50w speaker should be fine. I suspect something like the C Blue would be in the Trey vein of tone on that amp.
Thats cool it can take KT66's (I guess it is a matter of current draw, 1.3 compared to .9 amps from a 6L6) - is it biased for them or did you need to rebias? I never really spent much time with KT66's, probably have tried them on a Marshal at some point though.
I think it is a good call to take time trying as many speakers as you can though before picking one, not everyone gets that chance. Just keep in mind that speakers will sound harsh if not broken in, and will sound different through different cabs.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on September 11, 2012, 12:59:40 PM
Nice, so Fendery. I think a few guys here who use Fenders with a tone stack like that keep the mids up high and the bass and treble low or even off. A presence control is really nice too. If you get the volume that low, a 50w speaker should be fine. I suspect something like the C Blue would be in the Trey vein of tone on that amp.
Thats cool it can take KT66's (I guess it is a matter of current draw, 1.3 compared to .9 amps from a 6L6) - is it biased for them or did you need to rebias? I never really spent much time with KT66's, probably have tried them on a Marshal at some point though.
I think it is a good call to take time trying as many speakers as you can though before picking one, not everyone gets that chance. Just keep in mind that speakers will sound harsh if not broken in, and will sound different through different cabs.
It was rebiased for KT66's, I took it to a tech but the bias took minutes. Groove Tubes made a bias kit especially for these amps that I really want but can't find anywhere. If anyone has one for sale PM me! http://www.samash.com/p/Groove%20Tubes_Amplifer%20Tube%20Bias%20Tool_-49970168