Whats up there guys, (and girls, perhaps)
Got some positive feedback on the last breakdown I went through, but relized its probably not a song that everyone is trying to play, so I decided that I need to put together another one on a solo that everybody knows, but doesnt exactly know how to configure; so I put together another one here to help you guys out... the solo at the end of stash is a very complex solo. It contains (depending on which version) a lot of scale and modal work as well as a lot of tension and release. This is another breakdown I am going to do for you. Im not going to put exact licks becuase thats not a good way to learn, but I will go over what scales he is playing in and why he is playing these scales.
This solo requires the player to have his antennas up to listen to the changes.
The chords: (I play Jazz, so I play most of these in sevenths, but you can play it as majors and minors if it is easier for you, they both will work) I am going to make this a two parter, and put some other voicing's up, but I will start this one in majors. These chords can be taken as a Minor 2-5.
Dm
e---5
b---6
g---7
d---7
a---5
e---x
A#
e---6
b---6
g---7
d---8
a---8
e---6
Em7b5 also know as E half Diminished
e---x
b---8
g---7
d---8
a---7
e---x
A-9 7th
e---6
b---8
g---6
d---7
a---x
e---x
The Timing is based on 4 beats per chord.. It is as follows
down- up- up- up- next chord X4
Soloing positions..
There is a post on youtube from someone trying to go over the solo of this song. He tells everyone that the solo is based out of harmonic minor which is not exactly right. Trey does use harmonic minor within the chord changes but it is only over one of the four chords.
To start think of this solo as D aeolian. Aeolian for those who dont know is also know as the natural minor or relative minor from which the major came. It is built of the sixth degree, it contains a b3 b6 and a b7.. The b3rd makes this mode minor.
In this case and for ease of moving the mode over/under the chords we are going to play it enharmonicly. this means we are going to play the D aeolian on the fifth fret second string (D) The enharmonic mode to D aeolian on the fifth fret is A lydian. (dont blow your brains out yet, its just big words not confusing material, This just means we are going to play the D aeolian down and when we get to the fifth fret, the fingering is the same as if we were playing the lydian mode)
This scale looks like this:
D aeolian
e---8--6--5--------------------------------------
b-------------8--6--5----------------------------
g-----------------------7--5---------------------
d-----------------------------8--7--5------------
a---------------------------------------8--7--5--
e -------------------------------------------------
This mode moves all around, I just show it in this position because your hands are in that location while playing the chords. (at least in the basic fingerings) For instance move up and down the D aeolian or to look at it (incorrectly, but easily) think about it enharmonicly, you can move this lydian shape, to a C Mixolydian Shape, to a D Aeolian Shape, to a F Major shape, to a G Dorain Shape, and back to the A Lydian shape. ( that would just be the Aeolian mode played from D) i didnt mention locrain or phyregian but these shapes will get you from start to finish by themselves.
Anyhow, He is going to play D Aeolian over 3 (2 1/2) of the 4 chords. The other scale he is going to play over the last chord is infact a D harmonic Minor. The reason he does this is becuase of one note. That note is a C# or the sixth fret on the G string. If you play the chords slowly you will notice that the C# is only played in the Dm and the A7-9. it is not played in the Bb major or the E half diminished. This C# is the reason you cannot sit and play (like the guy on youtube suggests) D Harmonic Minor over the whole pattern.
This is where your antennas come in. While soloing, you have to listen for that change. When the band hits the A7-9 it allows you to hit the C# and play though the Harmonic Minor mode
I am not going to draw up the Harmonic minor scale, but you should know it in two places if you expect to make this song ring, the first is on the 5th fret of the D on the A string, and the next is on the 10th fret of the D on the E string. look it up if you dont know the scale already, its a fun one to remember.
The C# is what really makes this solo interesting. Reason being is because that is the point where Trey is going to build the tension and release point that we all love and wish we could do. Also th harmonic minor scale played through over the A will build tension almost on its own (depending on the fingering and picking) To start building some tension in your solo land on the 6th fret on the G string and simply slide it up to the 7th fret as the song moves from the A7th-9 to the Dm. this is a very basic but easily understandable way to build tension. the longer you can play (and play around) the C# the more tension you are going to build, and this song is easy to resolve by just using a simple half step slide or a leap and land to any D on the neck.
Well that is it for tonight.. hope this opens up some new doors for some of the players on this board going through there modal work that don't necessarily know why trey is doing what he is doing.
If you got a Song that you are playing but cant figure out where or what he is doing post it up. and I will go through it with everyone.
If everybody knows this, and wants me to stop posting bassic soloing theories and concepts let me know as well hahah.
Peace
NEVER stop posting this shit. That's basically as close to an order as you can get ;D
I love reading about people's views on theory, I pick something up everytime. Thanks Stiles, keep it coming!
Thanks Stiles. The only thing that would make it better would be a video clip, but I'm not complaining. It's this type of stuff on SD that helps me to focus on playing the guitar not just kicking pedals. Keep it coming.
haha, maybe one day I will compile some videos.
I agree, I feel like everyone is focused on there rig at this point in time and not about playing.
Dont get me wrong I love a good guitar rig as much as the next guy, but I decided that SD needs to bring back the musical aspect of the site, and not just be a bunch of gearheads.
Quote from: Stiles12 on December 11, 2010, 04:11:25 PM
Dont get me wrong I love a good guitar rig as much as the next guy, but I decided that SD needs to bring back the musical aspect of the site, and not just be a bunch of gearheads.
+ infinite to that order!
Thanks,
I play way more theory than i understand and with your explanations i ca put the theory underneath. thanks
Hi guys after watching my patties destroy there last few opponents it has put in a good mood...
I'm writing this from an iPad so if the spelling is unbelievably bad I'm sorry...
I was playing last night with some jazz musicians and we started talking about minor two fives and it reminded me that I wanted to put some additional fingerings up for you guys to make this solo even more in-depth...
I don't have a guitar in front of me so I am going to try and recall a few from memory... Just to restate I have been playing jazz for a long time and this is how I would configure these progression to add some color and to stay within the mode that I am using
..
D-9
E---12
B---10
G---10
D---10
A---xxx
E---10
Bbmaj9
E---x
B---13
G---14
D---12
A---13
E---x
E-7b5
E---x
B---15
G---12
D---14
A---13
E---x
A7
E---x
B---14
G---12
D---14
A---12
E---x
You can sub these in for the initial chord structures at anytime to give your guitar sound some more life... I am actually sitting in traffic on the gw bridge and decided what the heck, but again don't have a guitar in front of me or I would double check these for you guys.
If I was playing out with my jazz buddies and it got into this type of progression these chords would certainly come out and would probably be played more than the original progression only becuase these guys would not want contraction the progression without playing in sevenths....
Another chord that I would probably use would be a d-11... And I would sub it in for the d minor when I was playing around the 12th fret...
D-11
E---15
B---13
G---14
D---12
A----x
E---x
Anyway I'm sure that will keep some of you busy for at least another day.. They are obscure voicing for the general rock guitar library... But they are fun and they are very useful when used correctly. Again you can sub these chords in when you move your scales around, and when your up around the 12th fret these are great voicing to hit to make the song sound thick and help your bass player when he gets lost in his aeolian progressions :D
Please let me know what songs you are learning for those of you who seem to care and we can break it down, we all together will probably be able to complete an entire song, and if I haven't gone through it in the past I have fun learning how the master configures other solos as well..
Back to not moving in traffic,
Pete
Muy bueno, muy bueno...I am looking forward to applying this stuff to Stash, thanks again Stiles!
I have a ton of questions but need to forumlate them all as some of this stuff just turns ma brain to mush, ya know?
PS - Pats are looking good, eh? Ho man, what a game!
I like what you've done here! There is one area that has me a little confused on this song though and on this progression specifically. I found it written out as Dm7-Bb7-Em7b5-A7b9. D natural minor works over Dm7 and Em7b5. D Harmonic Minor works over A7b9. The problem I see is that Bb7 is not diatonic to D natural minor (or Aeolian), it is from D Locrian because it contains Ab. Therefore, the scales used would be D Aeolian over Dm7 and Em7b5, D Harmonic minor over A7b9 and D Locrian over Bb7. Am I wrong here? Is the progression actually Dm7-BbMaj7-Em7b5-A7b9??
Someone help me out here! haha, thanks!
You are not wrong to think about it that way, but personally if I were to play locrian I would play it over the half diminished (Em7b5) chord. reason is: I would approach the Em7b5 as a two chord in a 2-5-1 progression with a minor tonality ( which is essentially what this is)
As far as the flat 6th degree you can do a few things depending on the feel and what scale you are playing around.
1st- play the Bb as a major chord (add the octave) that will keep you within the Aeolian mode. I believe this is how trey plays it when he is hitting the chords. I don't believe he hits a Bb7 within the run,. maybe you are seeing this in the additional chord structures that I had posted, the main structure I believe is played with a Bbmaj
2nd- you can play the 6th as a Bbmaj7 but you would be out of Aeolian and subject to harmonic minor simply because of the half step raise from C to C#.. This is possible to do but it will require a lot of switching back and forth from the Aeolian to harmonic minor each time a chord structure changes. Jazz theorist would approach the solo this way, I don't believe trey plays it this way.
This chord structure is a line that trey "Stole" from Thelonius Monk, Monk has a lot of these type of tension minor ballads that he put out towards the later half of his recording career. Monk plays bebop minor (bebop dorian) over these type of lines.
Bb7 doesn't have c#. Not sure what you mean there. The C# comes in on the A7b9 chord, hence the use of Harmonic Minor. If the Bb chord is a maj. 7 then it is still in D natural minor. If it is Bb7 then there is an Ab (or G# enharmonically). In theory, Bb7 would be found in D Locrian (or Eb Major). Again, if it is Bbmaj7 then the point doesn't really matter. I know that Harmonic Minor is the scale for the A7b9.
yes, sorry im at work thinking about it off the top of my head and i was invisioning it from A.
If played a Bb7 you are playing one note out of scale (aeolian-natural minor; which ever jargon you use) that note being an Ab which would infact cause you to change scale tonality from aeolian to another form, in this case locrain. this is why I play it as a major instead of a dominate 7th. The major leaves you like we both said within the natural minor.
The reason I would not move the Bb to a Bb dominate 7 is becuase you are playing the flatened 6th degree from D (Bb) which is a major component involved in the Aeolian mode. The flatened 6th is the note within the scale (also a part of phrygian another minor modal) is a note within the scale that will create dissonance.
just some thoughts, love talking music finally
So, long story short, it's Bbmaj7.
I was thinking of creating a loop of this progression on Garage Band with Bb7 in it for practice purposes. I like to take a simple melody line and play it over different chords changing the notes in the melody as the chords change. Example: Play the first line of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." Since we are in natural minor, play the melody from that scale. If the next bar is in D Locrian (Bb7), change the proper notes again. Back to D Nat. Minor for the Em7b5 and finally D harmonic minor for the A7b9. I know that Phish has used this technique before but I've found it usefull for writing and soloing. You can get an entirely new sound and feel just by playing a melody with one altered note. Check it out!
Very cool - I don't think I ever tried the solo, but I will tonight with this in mind - I will probably start with the two changes and see if I can add the third, seems it always comes down to considering each chord as a key for the most versatility.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on March 09, 2012, 01:57:35 PM
Very cool - I don't think I ever tried the solo, but I will tonight with this in mind - I will probably start with the two changes and see if I can add the third, seems it always comes down to considering each chord as a key for the most versatility.
Do youself a favor to make it easier in the beginning and solo around in D Dorian. As you start to do that, you'll hear the tones that "work" and the ones that don't. From there, it can at least give you a roadmap to navigate with. That's what I did, anyways. D Dorian isn't the be-all-end-all, but it'll get you started anyways.
I'm pretty sure the progression is Dm7, Bb, Em7b5, A7b9 and when soloing over the V7 I make sure to hit on that C# to make it sound musical. Trey had a column in GW a few years back about this, I will try to find a scanner for you.
Dm7 Bb Em7b5 A7b9
This progression is exactly right.
I agree with you walker on noodling around to find notes that work. In this case with these chords I would certainly recomend starting at D aeolian or D harmonic minor. without getting too deep the dorian mode is going to leave you with a grouping of outside notes. The Dm7 is your one and anytime you are approach a m7 chord starting with aeolian would be the right approach.
Heady Jam Fan- taking each chord as a key would be a good approach but takes a long time to learn how to play modals in "windows" (window playing theory) if your learning modes or how to approach keys with coresponding modes start with some II-V-I major progressions and change modes over each chord (dorian, mixolydian, ionian)
if you know this already then yes playing scales over chords makes this thing come alive, approach this as a minor 2-5-1 using locrian over the E half diminished chord.
post up any questions if you have any, im still on this site all the time i just am not talking pedals anymore, send out some songs anyone is working on solo wise i think it would be fun for everyone to comment on what they do... we will all learn something.
Concerning what Stiles just said above, you could also manage to just play a Gm - C7 - Fmaj (ii-V-I) over Em7b5 - A7b9 - Dm7 as well as it is the relative major to the Dmin ii-V and it will be easy to avoid resolving to the tonic in D so much (imo), which can help to create more tension by resolving to A (the 5th of D) kinda like Trey does for many of his solos.
Good points!
Walker:
As far as noodling, that is how I started, using Aeolian in the E position (12th fret) and switching to Harmonic eventually. When I did that, I didn't want to stop hitting the C#, even earlier in the progression when I 'ought' to be using the C. I found myself playing arpeggios with half step lead ins then bending the C# up to D, which seemed to get closer to Trey-esce climaxes to solos.
Also I like the idea of playing in the relative major - I think it is a similar idea to (I believe I mentioned it on another thread) playing a 5th above - really easy to switch, for example, from an E shape pentatonic to an A shape a fifth above and play as if your 'in the right key' so you resolve to the 5 rather than the one. I think that little trick helped me to 'hear' the 5 and 3 as potential resting points.
Stiles:
I played jazz years ago as a teen in a couple bands (one big band, another quartet). So I am familiar with the approach of looking at multiple keys in a short chord progression (in each chord or sets of ii V I's, I believe I first tried this on Paper Moon), but I am not good at it. Hendrix makes it easier/clear as he is pretty much moving between E and A shape pentatonics/dorians (a la Little Wing intro), but in jazz and classical, chords are tight packed and change voicings (I suppose in a window, but I have to look up that theory), which can make switching modes more ambiguous to me (especially if they contain the same or nearly all the same notes), as it is played in the same register. That makes me try to focus more on arpeggios rather than modes as the core when the chords switch, then take my note selections in between those notes more modally (more in theory than practice, unfortunately). This is something I really want/need to work on.
Stiles - any more of this type stuff is very welcome! I am also tiring of gear talk, which is one reason I have spent less time on TGP and more time here. I found your writing style to be very accessible and inspired me to take sometime to jam a bit - I don't have much free time to do the tab'ing and analysis type thing unfortunately.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on March 12, 2012, 09:28:30 PM
Good points!
Stiles - any more of this type stuff is very welcome! I am also tiring of gear talk, which is one reason I have spent less time on TGP and more time here. I found your writing style to be very accessible and inspired me to take sometime to jam a bit - I don't have much free time to do the tab'ing and analysis type thing unfortunately.
I couldn't agree more. Stiles adds a nice touch to this board, and I too am tiring of all the gear talk. I just started to write "I wish we would talk more about theory, stiles of playing, etc." but I suppose I can't complain when I too am not starting any conversations. However, hopefully this will spawn more Q&A by the board. As Stiles said, we ALL learn when that happens!
Lol yep - I think we all start with the aspiration to play like (or close to as well as) our favorite inspiration as we can. We pick up the guitar and are no where near it, so we spend 90% of the first 15 years trading up to their gear and realized what we didn't learn along the way ;) At least I am guilty of that far too often.
And the ironic evidence of this is that i think the Guitar Lesson forum has the least threads and posts in it! Anyway I think some of you saw, I posted some of Ted Dunbar's System of Tonal Convergence (huge influence on Trey's tension and release) in there and I thought that could provide plenty of meat for technical discussion. To keep it in the SD realm, maybe it can be applied to some Phish tunes.
Oh yea - almost forgot - Stiles does add a lot to this board! IMO that is what this board has over others: hopefully a dedication to the music because there are threads on many accessible boards that lay out the Trey Gear options.