Ted Dunbar Books

[Heady Jam Fan]

Ok... I am just figuring it out too, but I can elaborate on my thoughts, but they could be wrong. I will write this in the key of F as Dunbar does.

It seems Dunbar compiled these scales by seeking scales with similar tritones that pull back to the I chord, and having notes just outside of the notes that make up the I chord - in Dunbar's examples he uses F as the I chord. All these scales are to be used over the V chord, or C7 and each scale implies a set of chords, in other words alternatives or replacements. Levine calls this bitonality in Jazz Theory - I think it extends further: you are considering the key (F), but as your playing changes, your considering the V chord a 'key', so also C7, but now your introducing replacements for C7 that still have to resolve back to a chord tone of the I chord (F, A or C). Thus three layers of tonality.

The notes just outside can be called side-stepping, literally describing stepping just to the side of chord tones of the key. This works because half-steps have the strongest pull back into chord tones. This is innate in the fact that V leads to I; while C resolves to itself (root of V to 5th of I), E resolves a half-step to F, G resolves a whole-step to A, Bb resolves a half-step to A. The E-Bb interval in the C7 chord is the important tritone Dunbar speaks of which contains the half-steps back to the I chord. The powerful scales that create tension and a strong release takes advantage of this as well as sounding outside. [To talk like Dunbar: in nature, two planets at a distance have a weak gravitational pull on each other, yet when one ventures too close, it is pulled into the other in an earth-shattering convergence].

Considering a basic major I V progression, you can play a plethora of scales over the whole thing all in the key of the I chord (f) Ionian, Mixolydian, Lydian if your George Russell, Major Pentatonic (part of mixo), even the 5th mode of Pentatonic (minor, part of dorian, but I usually use the flat 3 as a leading tone to the natural 3 in a major key), blues [look at Russells LCC scale chart; find the scale/chord interval and all the alternatives work as well over that chord (other scales, ie aug, aux, dim with the same interval number)]... If you play changes, you could just move which ever one of those scales up a 5th when you get to the V chord. This might be common in a blues tune I7 IV7 V7 where you could play F mixo over I, Bb mixo over IV and C mixo over V. You could stem from this that maybe Dunbar said "what can we do that is more interesting over the V chord and really pull the listener back to I."

The easiest step to grasp from the paragraph above is Dunbar's 14th and 21st scales; they are in the key of C and familiar to most people who play blues/rock. Scale #14 nostalgic to Phrygian due to the Db (a b9th from C, the V chord), and scale #21 simply being the blues scale in C (exampled in the paragraph above, nothing new if you play changes).

Side note:
Now, other scales Dunbar suggests stray a bit further from familiarity with just playing changes, but they share notes that pull back to the I chord. However, we don't want to just think of these as alterations of a C7 scale or some of the flavor will be lost, so when considering the scales not directly from C7, I would pay attention to the list of chords implied by the scale that Dunbar gives us, because consciously acknowledging those notes (arpeggios) helps us to impart that flavor (outsideness) when using the scale. It is the same idea as effortfully emphasizing chord tones when practicing modes, so it doesn't just sound like Ionian. [I still have to begin tackling this step, so take it with a grain of salt].

Ok. Before more Dunbar scales, I want to throw out a few cool example licks I like, just to make the point (note, I wrote these out in Amin rather than F), play though the A minor Pentatonic first or over a recording in A minor to get the key in your head:

-----------5-8-7-4-5- G# pulls us back to A and resolves the phrase, as the 7th
--------6-------------- F wants to go a half step down to E, as a minor 6th
---4-7-----------------B wants to go a half step up to C, as the 9th
-6--------------------- G# wants to go up a half step up to A, as the 7th
------------------------
------------------------

---------------------
--------------5-6-5-
------4-5-7---------
-6-7----------------
---------------------This example is similar, but doesn't have as much tension since it hits chord tones of the I chord regularly (mini resolutions if you will), but it resolves to the 5th of the I chord rather than the root.
You can see the side-stepping and how those notes pull toward the chord tones.

Ok, back to Dunbar and back to the key of F (F, A, C chord tones). Some of the scales are actually the same, just in different keys (they all work as replacements of the C7). I think the best example of this are scales 7, 8, 9, and 22 in Db, E, Ab and Bb, respectively. They are all major #4 #5 scales. Before we even delve in, lets consider the notes at the root (the key) of these scale; Db resolves to C, E resolves to F, Ab resolves to A, Bb resolves to A. [I liked scale 9 the most out of these]

Lets look at other half-step resolutions (remember some scales have F, A and/or C and those resolve to themselves and you can use resolutions of larger intervals, but they are less powerful):
7: Db>C, Bb>A
8: E>F, F#>F, G#>A, Db>C
9: Ab>A, Bb>A, E>F
22: Bb>A, E>F, F#>F
So when learning these scales and practicing them, try to phrase so you can use these half-step intervals for resolutions back to I.

A few more bright words from Levine:
Play with some sack or you will suck - you can't be feeble or it won't sound right, so when it doesn't sound right at first, sack-up until its under your fingers.
Try extending the 'outside' scale beyond the V chord - you can lead into the V chord by starting whatever scale your working on while the I chord is still sounding.

[IamWILSON]

Thanks Heady!  I read up last night, but didn't really get a chance to play.  But I basically just studied your first example.  Which in explanation makes sense to me and is alot of stuff I do already.  So I looked at scale #14.  Pretty cool stuff, very simple to apply as well.  As I was falling asleep I was thinking about it and picking keys in my head and picturing the fretboard and and finding all the notes for different keys.  I had this cool moment where I realized that those 5 notes when played for C (the V chord, being root=C, b9=Db, 11th=F, 5th=G, and b7=Bb) all corresponded to a G blues scale (G, Bb, C, Db, D, F) minus the natural 5 (in relation to G tonic - the note D)!  Today when I had a chance to try it out I realized it contains many resolutions that I'm already using when I use some altered scales in jazz, but my discovery of the G blues thing (minus the nat. 5) really makes an easy way to change the sounds of what I play over the dominant chord in a ii-V-I progression, as the addition of the major 3rd interval (by removal of the 5th) really adds a different sound to the scale.  In essence, my own way to think of what I just explained above is to just play the blues scale (leaving out the natural 5th) starting on the 5th scale tone of C7 (G blues w/o using D) before resolving to a chord tone of F maj.  Or don't even worry about that much thought, and just play a blues scale (again minus it's 5th) a whole step up of the key you're resolving to.  It becomes really easy to play some bluesy licks (but avoid the 5th) over jazz changes or jam music that sound just a little "out."  And really easy to execute as I'm sure we all know the blues scale really well.  Further, it also reminds me of a couple other tricks that I use when improvising. Maybe some of you know this one already, or learned and forgotten about it, but I'm sure this will be some new stuff for some of you.  

When playing over a Dom V chord or minor chord (especially/or more specifically a min II chord, or dorian mode).  You can use a minor triad based off of the 5th scale tone of the chord you're playing on.  So if you are playing over a Dmin7 or Ddom7 chord, you can use an A min triad (A, C, E) which are the 5th, b7, and 9th in relation to which D chord you were on.  Very cool sound that makes it easy to avoid landing on the root and 3rd and hitting the upper structure of the chord and adding the 9th scale tone.  For a good tune to practice this, check out Miles Davis's "So What."  First just improvise using only A, C, and E, and after you're comfortable with it and have explored the different interval relationships you can create using just those 3 tones, play around with D Dorian, but incorporate the Amin triad as a landing point, or just pass through and end somewhere else.  In a tune like "So What," I'd also recommend using B (the 13th) as another good landing point so you can really sound the Dorian mode.  

[Heady Jam Fan]

Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.

I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian. EDIT - looked it up, scale 20.

So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.

[fulltone1989]

Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.

I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian.

So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.

I think D is the 11th

[Happyorange27]

You guys are doing well by carrying the torch of Dunbar.  Thanks for the complete details of you findings.  This pentatonic scale shift sounds reasonably easy compared to some of the mind bending details.  Can one of you fellas make a soundcloud sample or a YouTube video kind of walking us through this?  Maybe play a looped vamp and describe the background chords and then talk about what you are playing?  Yeah do that!

[Heady Jam Fan]

Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.

I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian.

So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.

I think D is the 11th

D is the 11th in A, but we are talking about how an A arpeggio relates back to the key of D. Adding the 9th interval to an A chord would be a B note. B, in the key of D is a 13th. This goes back to what Levine calls Bitonality, that you are working in multiple keys at the same time and it can get really confusing. Now, A is the 5th interval in D, but many of Dunbar's scales replace A (or the 5th chord and/or scale) with something of another key, in which case you have something more like Tritonality; how does Dunbar's scale related back to the 5th interval chord/scale, and how does it relate back to the key of the song. At least thats how I think of it, although I suspect many people are only thinking about how the new scale/chord relates back to the key of the tune once they know it works over a V chord, you just need to know how it resolves to the I.

[Heady Jam Fan]

You guys are doing well by carrying the torch of Dunbar.  Thanks for the complete details of you findings.  This pentatonic scale shift sounds reasonably easy compared to some of the mind bending details.  Can one of you fellas make a soundcloud sample or a YouTube video kind of walking us through this?  Maybe play a looped vamp and describe the background chords and then talk about what you are playing?  Yeah do that!

Lol, maybe I will try to, but to be honest, I am not sounding unembarassingly good yet I could possibly do a few of the easier ones though... I'll have to see if I can set up a track in BIAB and record (either in BIAB, not sure if you can, or export to Garageband), otherwise, I would have to make a tune in Garageband to show this.

PS - I think Russell proposes some easier ways to get outside colors in LCC (I posted it in another thread). It suggests a systematic approach to integrating various colors based on the chord interval. I am only on the first chapter, but it is introduced there.

[fulltone1989]

Oooh I misunderstood what you were talking about! Thanks for the explanation.

I have the Dunbar book in my jam space ready to go through so maybe this is the kick I need to get going through it.

Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.

I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian.

So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.

I think D is the 11th

D is the 11th in A, but we are talking about how an A arpeggio relates back to the key of D. Adding the 9th interval to an A chord would be a B note. B, in the key of D is a 13th. This goes back to what Levine calls Bitonality, that you are working in multiple keys at the same time and it can get really confusing. Now, A is the 5th interval in D, but many of Dunbar's scales replace A (or the 5th chord and/or scale) with something of another key, in which case you have something more like Tritonality; how does Dunbar's scale related back to the 5th interval chord/scale, and how does it relate back to the key of the song. At least thats how I think of it, although I suspect many people are only thinking about how the new scale/chord relates back to the key of the tune once they know it works over a V chord, you just need to know how it resolves to the I.

[Heady Jam Fan]

I just started reading LCC, I find it easier in some ways, worth looking at that and seeing what you want to start with.

[fulltone1989]

Forgive me but what does LCC mean in that context

[Heady Jam Fan]

Lol, sorry, Lydian Chromatic Concept, written by George Russell, who IIRC was Dunbar's mentor. I just created a thread yesterday with the book and all the charts included.

The premise is that the Lydian mode ought to replace the Ionian mode for various reasons (later versions of the book contained controversial scientific arguments), but it contains a lot of helpful info that might be easier to start with compared to the stuff in this thread. I am on the first chapter/lesson of LCC about to start the second, but he includes the Lydian mode and 6 alternatives that can be used in its place to add colors, similar to Dunbar's collection of scales, but I think the way Russell systematizes it makes it easier to grasp.

[IamWILSON]

Lol, sorry, Lydian Chromatic Concept, written by George Russell, who IIRC was Dunbar's mentor. I just created a thread yesterday with the book and all the charts included.

The premise is that the Lydian mode ought to replace the Ionian mode for various reasons (later versions of the book contained controversial scientific arguments), but it contains a lot of helpful info that might be easier to start with compared to the stuff in this thread. I am on the first chapter/lesson of LCC about to start the second, but he includes the Lydian mode and 6 alternatives that can be used in its place to add colors, similar to Dunbar's collection of scales, but I think the way Russell systematizes it makes it easier to grasp.

I agree w/ you Heady Brah!  LCC seems way easier to grasp.  I remember starting to read it a while back and agree w/ his ideal about using the Lydian mode instead of the Major (ionian).  The #11 clearly dictates the the tonic within the key your improvising in by not providing this false sense of a resolution when the 11 is played in unison to the tonic.  Then you have no avoid note and create more tensions within your lines as well.  I wish I can remember my discoveries I made from reading some of that book while I was playing with my phish cover band.  It basically had to do with changing some chord tones within a scale when improvising in a minor key.  I think first I'd change the b7 to nat 7, and then the 5 to b5.  In a minor key the 11th doesn't get in the way.  I remember doing some cool tension/release stuff with those ideas, but don't totally remember what I was doing to execute all this.  I'll have to skim through that stuff again. 

Heady, I wish we could play guitars together for about a month and I'd explain all the things I know and you could explain these books to me and we'd both come out playing the guitar and thinking too much for the next 6 months, but after that we'd both be alot better.

[fulltone1989]

Where'd you find the thread Heady? I wanna check this book out.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Lol, sorry, Lydian Chromatic Concept, written by George Russell, who IIRC was Dunbar's mentor. I just created a thread yesterday with the book and all the charts included.

The premise is that the Lydian mode ought to replace the Ionian mode for various reasons (later versions of the book contained controversial scientific arguments), but it contains a lot of helpful info that might be easier to start with compared to the stuff in this thread. I am on the first chapter/lesson of LCC about to start the second, but he includes the Lydian mode and 6 alternatives that can be used in its place to add colors, similar to Dunbar's collection of scales, but I think the way Russell systematizes it makes it easier to grasp.

I agree w/ you Heady Brah!  LCC seems way easier to grasp.  I remember starting to read it a while back and agree w/ his ideal about using the Lydian mode instead of the Major (ionian).  The #11 clearly dictates the the tonic within the key your improvising in by not providing this false sense of a resolution when the 11 is played in unison to the tonic.  Then you have no avoid note and create more tensions within your lines as well.  I wish I can remember my discoveries I made from reading some of that book while I was playing with my phish cover band.  It basically had to do with changing some chord tones within a scale when improvising in a minor key.  I think first I'd change the b7 to nat 7, and then the 5 to b5.  In a minor key the 11th doesn't get in the way.  I remember doing some cool tension/release stuff with those ideas, but don't totally remember what I was doing to execute all this.  I'll have to skim through that stuff again. 

Heady, I wish we could play guitars together for about a month and I'd explain all the things I know and you could explain these books to me and we'd both come out playing the guitar and thinking too much for the next 6 months, but after that we'd both be alot better.

Lol - yea man, I think your right, it definitely feels tougher working through this stuff with only my own perspective. And I can barely apply what I am starting to understand. I just like how Russell went all OCD charting everything out, making something that could be very complex much more accessible. Its hard to find anyone in my area who is at all interested in learning this stuff (and who has a foundation to start with).