Hey all, I've been on this plateau of not improving or learning new things on guitar. As we all know, Trey has mastered the art of building up a solo and releasing it like a mofo. Does anyone have any build up techniques they care to share, perhaps you have your own video? Any suggestions on youtube? Playing sequences of 6 in a minor pentatonic scale seems like a good point for me to start- I can play pretty fast if I know the scale or what notes to hit, but I don't really know which notes make up good build ups and releases.
Thanks!
Quote from: webephishin on August 05, 2014, 11:22:21 PM
Hey all, I've been on this plateau of not improving or learning new things on guitar. As we all know, Trey has mastered the art of building up a solo and releasing it like a mofo. Does anyone have any build up techniques they care to share, perhaps you have your own video? Any suggestions on youtube? Playing sequences of 6 in a minor pentatonic scale seems like a good point for me to start- I can play pretty fast if I know the scale or what notes to hit, but I don't really know which notes make up good build ups and releases.
Thanks!
I'll work on a video for you. It's a lot of diminished/blues sounds along with more complex ideas I'm not familiar with. What buildup techniques are you referring to?
I'll work on a video for you. It's a lot of diminished/blues sounds along with more complex ideas I'm not familiar with. What buildup techniques are you referring to?
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I don't know the names of the techniques, which is why I asked the question. It would be much easier to tell you what I meant if I knew the names, but basically just real quick, heavy notes that lead to a unison bend as a release on the down beat of a new bar if that makes sense. Another way of describing it would be lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs while going up the scale/neck until you reach that release point, say, an octave or 2 up. I would really like to learn those fingering patterns.
Are you talking about something like this:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-kendrick/stash-build-up
Rather than the whole band tension and release Phish is known for?
The latter is all about the tritone. The former, as in the example, is usually just a frenetic stop/start, double-back, or some other pattern up a scale or arpeggio. The frenetic approach as heard here creates more tension and release, but smoother versions can be heard in things like the studio LxL (I know I'm obsessed with that solo). I think the frenetic approach is less about the notes played and more about the accuracy of timing with the resolve.
I will work something out for you, the question I have though, Are you looking for the "theory" of how to build tension, or specific notes and bends in relation to the relavant scale that trey uses to build tension? A lot of what trey is doing does depend a lot on the band.
Quote from: Stiles12 on August 07, 2014, 03:54:10 PM
I will work something out for you, the question I have though, Are you looking for the "theory" of how to build tension, or specific notes and bends in relation to the relavant scale that trey uses to build tension? A lot of what trey is doing does depend a lot on the band.
Yeah.
All the above.
Whatever you've got on your mind would be cool to hear.
Quote from: Jkendrick on August 07, 2014, 01:24:55 AM
Are you talking about something like this:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-kendrick/stash-build-up
Rather than the whole band tension and release Phish is known for?
The latter is all about the tritone. The former, as in the example, is usually just a frenetic stop/start, double-back, or some other pattern up a scale or arpeggio. The frenetic approach as heard here creates more tension and release, but smoother versions can be heard in things like the studio LxL (I know I'm obsessed with that solo). I think the frenetic approach is less about the notes played and more about the accuracy of timing with the resolve.
Yeah I guess you could use this stash build up as an example...But I'm thinking more straight pentatonic instead of whatever that scale Trey is using during this segment. But yes, you're on the right track of what I'm trying to convey to you.
Quote from: Stiles12 on August 07, 2014, 03:54:10 PM
I will work something out for you, the question I have though, Are you looking for the "theory" of how to build tension, or specific notes and bends in relation to the relavant scale that trey uses to build tension? A lot of what trey is doing does depend a lot on the band.
I'm not necessarily looking for the theory of it, more so specific notes, bends, phrasing, etc that could be used for say a 2-4 bar build up.
This seems like the sort of thing Trey would do in these build ups.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1462072
May be helpful in your quest?
This lesson might give you a few ideas--it's about using chord scales to pull some different ideas out of the modes (which is one way to build a bit of tension and release). See what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xgn9UlyK1Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xgn9UlyK1Q)
Quote from: webephishin on August 09, 2014, 01:01:47 PM
Quote from: Jkendrick on August 07, 2014, 01:24:55 AM
Are you talking about something like this:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-kendrick/stash-build-up
Rather than the whole band tension and release Phish is known for?
The latter is all about the tritone. The former, as in the example, is usually just a frenetic stop/start, double-back, or some other pattern up a scale or arpeggio. The frenetic approach as heard here creates more tension and release, but smoother versions can be heard in things like the studio LxL (I know I'm obsessed with that solo). I think the frenetic approach is less about the notes played and more about the accuracy of timing with the resolve.
Yeah I guess you could use this stash build up as an example...But I'm thinking more straight pentatonic instead of whatever that scale Trey is using during this segment. But yes, you're on the right track of what I'm trying to convey to you.
So I've been thinking a bit more about this. I think you could use virtually anything (pentatonic scale, arpeggio, anything) and use double backing or some similar method to move up the nck and get a similar effect. Basic examples of this can be found in early Allman Brothers stuff.
Example at 1:30 in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3iXND2hvDE
What Trey does, I thnk, that provides a lot of tension is that he does it rather frenetically. In messing around with a few patterns, I think you can get a lot of tension mileage out of emphasizing on random beats. what I mean is not always on an up beat or always on a down beat. That Stash lick is a good example. Here is something I'm working on based on that arpeggio lick lesson from TGP I posted earlier.
https://soundcloud.com/jim-kendrick/arpeggio-build-up-v2
Notice how different beats are emphasized in each measure. Also it really doesn't matter if your lick naturally hits the resolution. I hear Trey all the time kind of just make noise to stall for a split second or two before hitting that release bend up to the resolution note. He certainly does that in the Stash clip. Hitting that resolution on beat makes a lot of difference as well.
I hope that helps. I am by no means as schooled in this stuff as some others around here, so I'd welcome some dissection of these ideas by those more knowledgable.
I'll have more time to listen to these licks tomorrow, but I think it's kind of true that you can get away with just about anything in the "build-up" part--theory etc. be damned--as long as your landing is strong. You can also do things like taking a little pattern, say just a 3-note phrase, and move it up chromatically to your landing point. The notes don't have to be "right" in any theoretical sense because the strength of the pattern itself makes it work. And again, it's all about the landing. For Trey, that "landing" point is very often something pretty straight ahead rock and roll/pentatonic.
And frankly Trey doesn't always stick the landing, but he goes for it, and when he does nail it--well, that's what has kept me coming back to Phish shows for 22 years!
You know an odd example of this perhaps, but the build up to the first solo in Estimated Prophet comes to mind. Jerry wouldn't always nail that first bend, but when he did, it was transcendent.
Kendrick! Have you still been practicing all the triad theory stuff? That video lesson Lephty posted is a perfect example of how you can use those triads in improvising to create great tension/release movement. As far as the 7ths, they are easy to add to the mix because the Major 7ths (I and IV chord) are just a half-step below the root, and all the other b7ths (ii, iii, V7, vi, viib5) are just a whole step below the roots. And like Lephty mentioned, TIME is the most important aspect of making it work, so really you don't have to even limit yourself to staying within the 7 notes that fall in key, but using the other chromatic notes just the same, as long as you are resolving with good time, usually on the downbeat (or the one). The mention of time is why practicing those triads so much is so important. As soon as you are unsure, hesitant, or confused about what note is next, time is the first thing that will be lost.
Wilson, I have been doing the triad work. I've also decided a big deficiency for me is my timing, so I've been working on that, too. I've been trying to divide practices into thirds: one third for fretboard mastery, one third for rhythmic training, and one third mixing it up a bit and trying to build exercises like this. This is a version of the riff I've posted above. It's a repeating pattern but in an odd timing so it makes it particularly difficult (for me, at least) to play it in good time. I always am pulled to accent on the quarter beat and this wants to emphasize other beats. Let me know what you think. I've only worked on it a small bit, so it's still rough. Also apologies for the quality. We're still in a temporary apartment and the noise you hear is my kids' white noise machine through the baby monitor. ;)
http://vimeo.com/104340784
I'm not sure anyone is still paying attention to this thread, but I came up with a build up lick for a solo I am working on and it reminded me of this thread. The build up doesn't utilize any scale really, just an easy finger pattern. This is something metal-ish guys like Eddie Van Halen and Slash seem to do a lot. This ties back to what was discussed earlier that you don't really need to be doing anything that has a strict theoretical explanation so long as you resolve. The resolution lick is based off a Jimmy Herring lick from his band Frogwings. It's a bebop-ish Dorian lick, which kinda reminded me of the Dorian stuff Lephty wa doing in his video.
Here is a quick video. It's still rough as I just came up with it and haven't gotten it totally wired. Plus I'm playing it on an acoustic! :P
https://youtu.be/tiKfahLrVdA
Here is the tab for it too. (Note the tab is in G Dorian and in the video I played it in A Dorian):
E |----------------------------------------------------|
B |----------------------------------------------------|
G |--------------------------------------------3--5----|
D |--------------------3--5-----------3--5--6----------|
A |-----------3--5--6--------3--5--6-------------------|
E |--3--5--6-------------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------------3--5----|
--------------------3--5-----------3--5--6----------|
-----------3--5--6--------3--5--6-------------------|
--3--5--6-------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------|
--6-----3-----8b----------8--6-----8--6-------------|
--------------------------------8--------8-----7----|
--------------------------------------------6-------|
----------------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------|
-----6--5-------------------------------------------|----------||
--8--------6-----6-----6--6L------------------------|--6-------||
--------------7-----7-------------------------------|----------||
----------------------------------------------------|----------||
----------------------------------------------------|----------||
----------------------------------------------------|----------||
I've actually been thinking about buildups a lot lately. One of my favourites actually comes from a somewhat unusual soruce...
http://dai.ly/x2mjbrz
If you skip to about 5:40 a chase starts with some very nice music adding to the suspense build up. I've been trying to figure out what, musically, they did there.
You know that's Rossini's Barber of Seville, right?
Quote from: Jkendrick on August 16, 2015, 07:57:57 PM
You know that's Rossini's Barber of Seville, right?
I mean, yeah I just figured that Warner Bros added a twist to it themselves - I've tried looking up the music for the Barber of Seville and I don't see what exactly it is that causes the build up. It just doesn't click, you know?