I am getting a new (used) guitar soon and I want to do the series/parallel and coil tap mods, but my understanding is there are a number of ways to do this. I was hoping to get close to how big red has it set up and haven't found a schematic yet (I saw happy posted the same question a while back in the SD forum ;)).
Seymour Duncan has some good wiring diagrams: http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/
Parallel, split (single) and series (humbucker) are typical options.
Thanks Manic - the two switches for coil drop and series are 2 way toggles? So one way it tap, one way is humbucker for one switch, the other is series on direction and parallel the other? And which coil is dropped in each pup, the outisde (closest to neck/bridge) or inside? Does the series feed bridge toward neck or neck towards bridge?
It makes sense to me that the inside coils would be dropped, leaving the outside coils to provide that opposite end range of tones your pickups provide. I've read some posts in here in the past that are very insightful to how many different options there are with series/parallel and coil tapping. I think Picture of Nectar really explored the options and had some great ideas on why you might want to do it differently than Trey's set up. Also, Andrew Olson of AO guitars chimes in here every once in a while and I'm pretty sure he knows how Trey's guitar is set up and can explain it very easily.
Thanks guys, I will take a look around some older threads here, I have been searching on google and TGP and hadn't found anything conclusive.
I read that Paul gave a hint to try a three position switch. You'll want the options. Then you can get more.
So it seems most people prefer the 3 way toggle for each pup rather than separate master switches. This is interesting, but makes some sense, though Languedoc's hint was using 3 way toggles, yet he still uses two master switches, which I don't get.
Also, I have read that series and parallel refer to using both humbuckers aligned in series or parallel (which would negate the selector switch as it would essentially be in the center position), but I also read it refers to the separate single coils within one humbucker. If that latter is the case, then wouldn't that make negate the coil-drop switch? Because if the two coils are in series or parallel, then both are being used and cannot be dropped (or if one is dropped, they aren't be used together).
My friends guitar has the 3 way switches. He is thinking about switching to the 2 way just for ease of use onstage. He finds that in the heat of battle, it's more difficult to get to the middle position than the other two. I've seen his band, and he spends substantial amounts of time to stop playing so he flick the switches more accurately. Just another thing to think about...
QuoteI tried several different kinds, and these just have the right magnets and the right number of windings on the coils. If I was going to be making pickups on my own, these are probably what I'd be making. I do modify them a bit, but generally they're stock pickups. There's a coil drop switch for both pickups, and then another switch that puts them in series with each other, which is sort of like turning it into one big pickup, which gives you a really fat, warm sound. It's pretty much what's available, but if someone wants something else, I'd be happy to do it.
~Paul @ http://www.jambands.com/features/2006/08/18/guitar-talk-with-paul-languedoc (http://www.jambands.com/features/2006/08/18/guitar-talk-with-paul-languedoc)
So I think this is the wiring diagram (though Paul said this site often has minor errors, ie, this doesn't have a tone control):
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WD2HH3T10_05/2-Humbuckers3-Way-Toggle-Switch1-VolumeSeries-Parallel.html (http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WD2HH3T10_05/2-Humbuckers3-Way-Toggle-Switch1-VolumeSeries-Parallel.html)
I know it's an older interview, but I find it interesting that Paul mentions how Trey is using less and less of the TS's.
Yea, I pretty much posted that for a definitive answer on the wiring, but I found what you are talking about and it isn't clear - does it suggest he sometimes plays without a Screamer? I doubt it - non of his sound lacks the tonal focus. So I don't really know how to read that.
I took it as maybe he's using less drive. Maybe the "cleaner" TS is being used to push his DR harder. From 2000 on his DR tone was pretty gritty all by itself. Could be where the clarity of his tone is coming from. To me too much drive from the TS into an overdriven amp (DR or lead channel of the Boogie for example) just mushes things out.
Thats interesting... I always thought he kept the DR pretty clean (I don't know why I assumed that or if I read it somewhere). It can't be too dirty though or else he would have trouble cleaning up enough for some tunes. Though last night I was playing with my amp as loud as I could without it breaking up too much and I ended up keeping my TS as clean as I could.
As for the wiring - I think that is really interesting that almost no one seems to put both pups in series with each other. I still don't understand other posts about why Paul would suggest using 3 way switches - I can't figure out what the third position would be.?.
The three way would let you choose from series/split/parallel. Parallel being a standard humbucker. I may be wrong but I don't think the pick ups are in series as one big pick up. You get the same effect by switching them to series and putting the pup selector in the middle position. I have the 3 way switches on my guitar for both pups and it's a pretty versatile set up.
Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on February 18, 2012, 10:51:50 AM
The three way would let you choose from series/split/parallel. Parallel being a standard humbucker. I may be wrong but I don't think the pick ups are in series as one big pick up. You get the same effect by switching them to series and putting the pup selector in the middle position. I have the 3 way switches on my guitar for both pups and it's a pretty versatile set up.
Sorry, I am a bit confused since it is hard to keep track of when we are talking about parallel or series for each single coil in a humbucker or between the two humbuckers. Like when you say, "Parallel being a standard humbucker," you mean the way the two humbuckers work together in parallel is standard? Yea, for sure, but a standard humbucker runs the two single coils in series as standard.
So on your guitar the two humbuckers are in series when the selector is in the middle and the toggle is on series? That is interesting, I am not great with tech/wiring, but I can't see how that would work when the mini toggles control the pups separately - I think that would result in standard humbuckers (each single coil in series with its paired single coil) in parallel with each other.
The only thing I can think for adding a 3 way mini toggle (that matches the best information I found from Paul) would be having a master split/series/parallel that controls how each pair of single coils interacts within a humbucker, then a 2 way toggle for series/parallel effecting how the two humbuckers interact: separate (parallel) or together (one big bucker).
So I finally got to try my guitar with the above described wiring: one selector to put both humbuckers in series with each other, one switch for coil drop. I only had a couple minutes with my amp cranked before my roommate stumbled in saying she was napping >:( Then I played at sub-bedroom volumes, but got a good idea of some of the tones, I will try to describe below.
First, the series setting is pretty killer! I know many of you don't have your axe wired that way, but I would highly recommend trying it, especially if you are covering Phish. I literally had infinite sustain - I held a note until I got too bored to keep it going any longer (and this was sub-bedroom volumes) - this was not feedback, it was clean, consistent, no changes in volume or tone - it was THE NOTE!
I should mention, series wasn't as dark as one might expect, nor was it muddy. If the neck bucker is a good rock/jam tone, the series worked for a jazz tone.
With the split coil setting, you can also put the outside single coil of each humbucker in series (coil drop and series switch engaged), which was pretty interesting too. I need to play with it more to see how/if it is useful and see if I can figure out if/when the red guy uses it, just out of curiosity.
NOTES ABOUT THE SERIES SWITCH: The series only works when the pup selector is in the neck position. This is different than most people's wiring that have the same series switch I have (theirs disengages the pup selector). Also, I read how some people had trouble figuring out which setting is the series setting with all the switches and such, and I wasn't sure how my wiring works (though once you find it, it sounds fairly obvious), I am slightly embarrassed to say it took some playing around for me to find (which was cuz of the pup selector only allowing series in the neck position), but I was able to confirm it by pulling an old string tight between my hands over one pickup at a time and plucking it and seeing if the pup was engaged.
The coil drop really hits a lot of Trey's tones that I love, especially the clean rhythm in the neck pup. As much as the series buckers I mentioned above is necessary for 'The Note,' I think the coil drop is necessary for so many Phish songs - even to the point I might choose singles in a hollowbody over buckers if I had to pick one. The singles are a bit noisier though, but I don't think it will be unmanageable (though I need some more stage-volume testing to confirm).
As many of you probably know, have found or could guess, the treble bleed is absolutely necessary. While the coil drop could probably get you from dirty to clean depending on your TS setting, the volume knob is clutch.
I also had to switch out the Duncan 59's that I got with my guitar for some gold-cover Schaller Golden 50's I had laying around. They are very very similar as far as I can recall the 59's from about a week ago, but the Duncan's didn't have the 4 conductors.
I hope this helps others choose their wiring, though I want to say it does not completely match my understanding of how a Doc works: I think I have all the same settings, but it seems his wiring works more smoothly (such as going to series if that switch is hit, regardless of where the pup selector is). Also, I doubt anyone can emulate Paul's ability to rewire a pup so the single coil is a bit hotter than the stock pup. So this is not a replacement for Paul's work, but a way to get closer to Trey's versatility and tone, not to mention trying to find another guitar with the same build quality, fret scale, etc.
The last thing I would toss in as something I might consider for the future. In my limited time on the guitar, and even more limited thus far with this new wiring, I haven't found much use for my tone knob. I use it very very often on my solid body (gets strat like tones), but not much so far on this guitar. I would consider adding a third switch in place of it to put each single coil in parallel within a humbucker (rather than the two singles in series as it a typical humbucker). This is not a standard option on a Doc and my understanding is that a third switch is needed in the wiring I have (with the switch to put both buckers in series). I think this would add some more versatility and some cool sounds, while it is less output than a single coil, it has the hum-canceling, which is nice.
Damn good report sir. That is how my guitar is wired and yesi had to figure it out by trial and error. I can agree with about everything you said but I do try to use the tone knob frequently although I don't like how muddy it gets at times when I cut all the tone. You are doing great. Thanks.
Thanks Happy! Nice to hear I got it right (the wiring and the opinions).
As for the tone knob, I didn't get to try much with the single coils, but with humbuckers and a lot of mahogany on the Artinger, it was plenty warm already. I don't think I will end up taking out the tone knob, it was just a consideration for more versatility. I guess other options are phase switching and stuff I read about like having 3 single pups in parallel, but that is a slippery slope where I start adding switching to engage every single coil individually, put them in and out of phase and series, etc... ;) I'll end up with more switches than wood!
Nice review Heady. While it still all sounds confusing to me (had this explained to me a couple times now), I'm starting to get a better picture of how this all works. I got a question about the Golden 50 pickups. I have some sitting around too, and I was actually thinking about putting them in my Ibanez AS-80, and having my tech either install the switches to do all the series/parallel/coil tap stuff, or at least installing push pull pots to do some of that stuff (so he doesn't have to drill extra holes into the guitar - in case I decide to change pickups and don't use the switches). So my questions:
1- Can you describe any difference in the tone or feel of the Golden 50's compared to the '59s? I've always assumed that the Schaller's have a little more hair or bite to them, just because Trey's tone in the early 90's had more, but I'm not sure if that was just due to the pickups.
2- As far as all the wiring and stuff. If you could do it again, is there anything you would certainly have to change? Adding more/doing less then how it is currently wired?
Good questions! I wish I could offer a definitive answer, but I did not have long enough last night to play that I would say you should definitely do one thing or another on your guitar. That said, I will be out of town on saturday through thursday, but hopefully before then I can get a more concrete opinion formed.
I did not get to do a side by side comparison of the 50's to the 59's, in fact it was over a week between hearing the two. The first thing I tried when I got the guitar back is comparing the amount of overdrive and the tone of the humbucker settings so I could try to judge this aspect, and I really couldn't tell any huge difference. The 59's are supposedly copies of the 50's and Duncan did some good work I guess. I suspect there could be as much difference between a set of either the 50's or 59's than between the two companies, especially considering that neither set of pups was brand new and the parts that make up a pup tend to change a little over time. Comparing Trey's tone, I dont know exactly when he made the change (if he ever actually used Schallers), but I think there is so much other change in his rig, this would be a minor factor, like accidently bumping the dirt knob on a TS one way or the other.
Anything I would change - not at this point. It would be nice if hitting the series switch would override the pickup toggle I think. I don't know how to make that happen, but it would be a nice, quick way to get from a clean tone to a soaring lead, such as Gumbo, probably just hitting the series switch and from single coil to humbucker (not to mention turning on the 2nd TS9, turning up the guitar volume and stomping the amp-channel switch ;)).
I would suggest using push-pull pots for sure if you don't have space for switches already. I had 2 volume, 2 tone knobs and took one of each out to make space for my switches and I certainly would not drill holes in my guitar. I suppose I could have seen if it was possible to pop in push-pulls on my guitar so that I could do series/parallel within each humbucker... I might tend to use that setting in exchange for the coil drop, but it has less volume than one single coil alone, so that would probably be more volume change than I would want in comparison to humbuckers (it might be innately clean, and Paul rewires the pups he uses on guitars to have more similar volume between single and humbucker to begin with, so the parallel setting is even further from what big red has going on). However, it would still have the hum canceling, which would be nice.
EDIT: I should also say that neither the 59's or the 50's are considered out of this world pups, but the builders of these types of guitars seem to feel they are the best option for their work. One benefit of the 50's is I believe many of theme have extra holes for screws on the mounting, which can allow you to adjust their angle so the single coil setting is a more similar output volume relative to the humbucker setting.
Also, comparing pups really has to be by ear rather than specs - the resistance of the two pups is very close, but consider something like Joe Bardens: very low resistance, yet a hotter output than a PAF while still maintaining the top end and having excellent articulation.
Looking at the AS80 - you could do a similar thing I did and remove two knobs for switches. I would start with that wiring and see if your tech can do push pulls for parallel in each pup (on the remaining knobs), if you want the extra versatility. I am also in discussion on the Trey Tone thread at TGP with someone who is describing a setting with 3 singles in parallel that he really likes.
As far as conceptualizing this, I almost think of it in relation to electromagnetic physics from science class way back in the day when we had to wire multiple light bulbs to a battery in various configurations. Or consider it similar to wiring your guitar pedals either in one series/chain or in multiple, parallel chains from a signal splitter. In series, each pedal imparts its tone, then passes the signal onto the next pedal that does the same thing. In parallel, each pedal acts on its own and is summed at the amplifier. I don't know how accurate this is, but might help... or be more confusing:
For light bulbs, you can imagine wiring in series as from the battery>bulb1>bulb2>bulb3>bulb4>other side of the battery. This is analogous to having all 4 single coils (2 in each humbucker) in series, making one big humbucker (as a humbucker has two single coils in series naturally, like battery>bulb1>bulb2>other side of battery). Each bulb/coil changes the energy/signal and passing that change onto the next one. This is the same as my master series setting on my guitar. Or comparable to stacking 4 dirt pedals in a single chain to your amp.
Comparing to parallel, each bulb is in its own loop from the battery: battery side one>bulb>battery side two, repeated for each bulb. So the wires going to each bulb would be parallel to each other. This is analogous to the setting on my guitar where I can have one pickup from each humbucker in parallel with each other (coil tap engaged, pickup selector in center, series switch off). Also comparable to having parallel loops in your effect chain so they act independently of each other.
From the above example, turning the series switch on would put one single coil from each humbucker in series with each other: battery>bulb1>bulb4>other side of battery (1 and 4 cuz it is the two outside single coils on my guitar, the inside ones, 2 and 3, are grounded). So this turns the two most distant single coils into one humbucker.
Also from the parallel example, if I put the pickup select toggle to either bridge or neck (rather than center), only one bulb would be active: battery>bulb>battery. This is like only having one pedal engaged in your effect chain.
The other common option that I don't have are putting each single coil within a humbucker in parallel with each other, turning a bucker from battery>bulb1>bulb2>battery into two sets of battery>bulb>battery. This setting also allows you to put the pickup selector in center and have 4 single coils in parallel with each other, like having 4 parallel effect loops going to your amp.
Now considering this, when you split your signal in your rig for parallel loops, you share signal / impedance (resistance). The same happens with pickups, so the parallel setting is less output volume than a single coil or effect on its own. In series, you have more output volume as one pickup/effect pedal feeds the next, like stacking two dirt pedals, you are above unity volume.
This has definitely got my gears turning. Gonna have to break out the soldering iron this weekend. 8)
Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on March 01, 2012, 01:28:50 PM
This has definitely got my gears turning. Gonna have to break out the soldering iron this weekend. 8)
Need an emoticon with a welding mask
If I were only getting 2 push/pulls on my volume knobs would you reccomend 1 for coil tap and the other for series? I was thinking of both being coil taps but it seems like series would be pretty good also.
I don't know much about wiring or what is possible with push pulls. There are benefits to both and I think it really comes down to how much you want Trey's tones and which ones. If you want his really powerful leads, I think the series is probably pretty important.
If you prefer more variations in the lower output settings, then I think separate coil taps are definitely cool. I have exactly that on another guitar (though it also has a middle single and is a solid body) and it is pretty sweet being able to combine something like a neck single and bridge humbucker or switching between the two.
I would say that hollowbodies tend to be warmer, I think my Artinger is on the warmer side at that and I don't find my bridge single to be overly bright, so the single coil works just fine (I don't have a huge need to switch from neck single to bridge bucker quickly, if I want to, the coil tap switch is easy to hit). However, I can't do an in between setting (pup selector center) with a neck single and bridge bucker. If something like that is important to you, then the controls for individual pups is probably more ideal.
I jammed for a bit with a friend today after I played around on my own for a bit and found myself using the singles much of the time, especially for rhythm work. For leads, I ended up doing a bit of switching an testing and I thought pretty much everything sounded pleasing, but I will say that putting both humbuckers in series adds something you just can't really get, IMO, without that option. I tend to think of Trey's gain-staging as a number of volume and midrange gradients and that setting just steps both of those up a notch. For me, when I first heard it through my guitar, it reminded me of several leads/solos that I would be fairly certain he is using that setting on. I would say it was similar for me to adding a midrange boost to my signal chain to emulate the second channel of his amp - you can't hear that it gets you that much closer until you add it, then your like 'oh... right, makes sense now..."
I guess I should add that I did not find switching settings to be cumbersome, actually quite natural. I was pretty surprised because last night I pretty much only had enough time to learn an remember what was what, but when I picked her up today, I was able to get where I wanted to go without concentrating on it. That is important in whatever configuration you choose.
You've convinced me :D I'm getting this setup done next week with push/pulls instead of switches. I dont feel the need to start cutting up a LP Studio to put switches in there. I went with Wolfetone Dr Vintage for my new pickups, expecting amazing results in the bridge cause those stock Gibson pups are just too damn hot. Will report back when its all completed by my tech.
Cool!
I am loving the Master Series - for more applications than I thought. It even works great for a fat, clean rhythm - it is fatter and brighter, really just a tighter sound, than any of the other settings.
The one thing I find is that my neck is significantly warmer/bassier than my bridge pup. This could be that I am playing on my Bassman, which has more low end than a lot of amps. I find that sometimes I feel that the tone knob would be more helpful if it only controlled the bridge pickup.
I haven't gotten a lot more time since my last post since I was out of town, but I am looking forward to hearing your opinions after you get yours all wired up - fortunately a Les Paul is easier to change compared to a Hollowbody, so if you decide you want something different, it is much easier to adjust.
Quote from: MomaDan on March 08, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
You've convinced me :D I'm getting this setup done next week with push/pulls instead of switches. I dont feel the need to start cutting up a LP Studio to put switches in there. I went with Wolfetone Dr Vintage for my new pickups, expecting amazing results in the bridge cause those stock Gibson pups are just too damn hot. Will report back when its all completed by my tech.
thats too bad, pull pots pop, and are completely impractical unless your hiding behind a couple other guitar players. well placed mini toggles can be turned on with hesitation. I found the wolftones to be too bassy for a hollowbody, perhaps theyll sound better in a lp studio. And that guitar isnt worth much, id be drilling holes in it like a dutch prostitute.
If it worked for Jimmy Page I think it will work for me. In the end cost was the deciding factor, pull pots didnt cost any extra cause I was gonna upgrade the volume pots to 500K anyways. The pop isnt a dealbreaker for me, I'm using a DL4 with the hated stock switches after all.
I think mini toggles are more convenient as they are equally easy to switch in either setting, while push/pulls are sometimes difficult to pull, especially if the knob isn't set to one or the other extreme (sometimes I accidently turn the knob). On the other hand, I never had a popping sound with my push pulls - I have two on my solid body for coil drop (one for each pup). They are Joe Barden pups and, I don't know the technical aspect, but I thought their coil drop worked differently... maybe thats the difference.
Quote from: MomaDan on March 08, 2012, 09:38:55 PM
If it worked for Jimmy Page I think it will work for me. In the end cost was the deciding factor, pull pots didnt cost any extra cause I was gonna upgrade the volume pots to 500K anyways. The pop isnt a dealbreaker for me, I'm using a DL4 with the hated stock switches after all.
well by that line of reasoning, go shoot 200 in smack, and kick your cabinet over. :0) kidding! sort of. I have just about every single Zep bootleg thats in circulation, and ole Jimmy has some of the noisiest gear in rock n roll history, and if your going for gods of rock, its fine. But for loud cleans, jazz, funk, etc it just doesnt cut it.
Quote from: Poster on March 08, 2012, 10:02:22 PM
Quote from: MomaDan on March 08, 2012, 09:38:55 PM
If it worked for Jimmy Page I think it will work for me. In the end cost was the deciding factor, pull pots didnt cost any extra cause I was gonna upgrade the volume pots to 500K anyways. The pop isnt a dealbreaker for me, I'm using a DL4 with the hated stock switches after all.
well by that line of reasoning, go shoot 200 in smack, and kick your cabinet over. :0) kidding! sort of. I have just about every single Zep bootleg thats in circulation, and ole Jimmy has some of the noisiest gear in rock n roll history, and if your going for gods of rock, its fine. But for loud cleans, jazz, funk, etc it just doesnt cut it.
I have no idea what this has to do with my post.
well loud cleans kinda demand some quick slight of hand, and no toggle noise is all i meant.
Quote from: Poster on March 08, 2012, 08:37:26 PM
thats too bad, pull pots pop, and are completely impractical unless your hiding behind a couple other guitar players. well placed mini toggles can be turned on with hesitation. I found the wolftones to be too bassy for a hollowbody, perhaps theyll sound better in a lp studio. And that guitar isnt worth much, id be drilling holes in it like a dutch prostitute.
my. pull. pots. don't. POP!
Maybe you've had some experience with some shitty pots that I would never fathom using? just. turn. my. nose. at. it. I'm better than that!
I also have pull pots on a Dean Evo that I bought years back (thing weighs a ton) and those pull pots do NOT pop. They're pretty great, actually. But what do I know. ???
I have an old squier '51 that just sits in a gig bag. I remembered it when you guys started talking about push pull pots. It came from the factory with a push pull pot for splitting the bridge humbucker. I had to plug it in this morning just to check if the pot made any pop and thank god, no pop. Must be because squier guitars only use the best components.
did you have any line driving effects engaged? like say an overdive? did it make a sound when you put it back to non coil tapped, or full humbucker?
Quote from: Poster on March 09, 2012, 12:04:55 PM
did you have any line driving effects engaged? like say an overdive? did it make a sound when you put it back to non coil tapped, or full humbucker?
Hey poster, Can we get some pics of your latest guitar? Any links to some of your latest recordings?
I have had all sorts of effects when using my push pulls: TS, Timmy, Pinnacle, Skreddy Fuzz... I never had any extra noise/popping.
Could be the pots you were using were old/scratchy or had a problem with grounding.
I would love if Poster posted some recordings of his amazing tone and mad guitar skills, as well as some pictures of his "my guitar is better than your guitar," guitar!
yeah no, i really dont give a shit what you guys think! well except for a couple of you, and you guys already have access to that info. peace!
but yeah, very well could have been a bad pot, or rather, a few bad pots! I only speak from my experience, mini toggles seem more reliable to me. Glad to hear everybody is so thrilled with their push pulls. Not hating, honestly, just didnt work for me.
as for my guitar, i never said it was better than anybodies, or any other guitar, but it works for me. I only have 2 guitars now, 1 electric and 1 acoustic. Iam just happy I can make the sounds I want to make. The AO was a great guitar, but I dont like to settle. I constantly turn over amps, pickups, pedals, cables, etc. And no I dont really lose my ass on the sales, I only want to improve in reliability, tone, etc. And again, what my opinion is regarding what I think is good tone, or reliable, changes all the time.
go on tour playing some pop music, get on the road, get sorta happy with what your making, and if you happen to be surviving from that income, great. otherwise, everybody is a weekend warrior. and thats cool too, but I think there is certainly a wide gap between the two. haul your shit around, kick it with a boot, pour a beer on it, do three sets in NOLA in august, I dunno, its different for everybody, go watch airheads, at the end of the day its all about you anyway, you egomaniacal fuckers.