Anyone have / know of any close pics of Trey's DR?
I'm getting great (Trey-like) tones on my SFDR, but messing around with a few mods and I think pics of his amp might help me figure some stuff out.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 13, 2014, 09:12:36 PM
Anyone have / know of any close pics of Trey's DR?
I'm getting great (Trey-like) tones on my SFDR, but messing around with a few mods and I think pics of his amp might help me figure some stuff out.
Gut shots? I haven't seen any.
Quote from: fulltone1989 on January 14, 2014, 08:47:34 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 13, 2014, 09:12:36 PM
Anyone have / know of any close pics of Trey's DR?
I'm getting great (Trey-like) tones on my SFDR, but messing around with a few mods and I think pics of his amp might help me figure some stuff out.
Gut shots? I haven't seen any.
No, I'd kiss you if you found that. And neither of us want that.
Just the front panel to see the knob settings.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 14, 2014, 09:02:20 AM
Quote from: fulltone1989 on January 14, 2014, 08:47:34 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 13, 2014, 09:12:36 PM
Anyone have / know of any close pics of Trey's DR?
I'm getting great (Trey-like) tones on my SFDR, but messing around with a few mods and I think pics of his amp might help me figure some stuff out.
Gut shots? I haven't seen any.
No, I'd kiss you if you found that. And neither of us want that.
Just the front panel to see the knob settings.
Haha don't tease me like that.
I know there are some photo albums of the island tour and as much as I hate PT, they have rare photos like that.
I'd actually love to see these, too. I have a Blackface Bandmaster, and it gets unbelievable Trey tones. The settings on those amps don't really seem to alter the tone all that much (as compared to say a Boogie). They pretty much sound golden at any setting.
I have a few other questions about the DR.
1. Does Trey use the vibrato channel on his DR for lead? And is his mid-hump only on the vibrato channel? So that he's just using treble and bass on channel 1, and then he gets the more mid-rangy sound on lead stuff?
2. what speaker is in his DR. I've heard about 7 different things. From Celestion V. 30, to Tone Tubby, to Celstion Blue Alnico, etc.
3. did Trey ever run his DR out to his cab?
Quote from: fulltone1989 on January 14, 2014, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 14, 2014, 09:02:20 AM
Quote from: fulltone1989 on January 14, 2014, 08:47:34 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 13, 2014, 09:12:36 PM
Anyone have / know of any close pics of Trey's DR?
I'm getting great (Trey-like) tones on my SFDR, but messing around with a few mods and I think pics of his amp might help me figure some stuff out.
Gut shots? I haven't seen any.
No, I'd kiss you if you found that. And neither of us want that.
Just the front panel to see the knob settings.
Haha don't tease me like that.
I know there are some photo albums of the island tour and as much as I hate PT, they have rare photos like that.
Haha.
I hate PT too man, but maybe I'll have to do some searching.
Quote from: Hoody on January 14, 2014, 11:08:48 AM
I'd actually love to see these, too. I have a Blackface Bandmaster, and it gets unbelievable Trey tones. The settings on those amps don't really seem to alter the tone all that much (as compared to say a Boogie). They pretty much sound golden at any setting.
I have a few other questions about the DR.
1. Does Trey use the vibrato channel on his DR for lead? And is his mid-hump only on the vibrato channel? So that he's just using treble and bass on channel 1, and then he gets the more mid-rangy sound on lead stuff?
2. what speaker is in his DR. I've heard about 7 different things. From Celestion V. 30, to Tone Tubby, to Celstion Blue Alnico, etc.
3. did Trey ever run his DR out to his cab?
1) I think your mostly correct here, but there are a lot of things to consider.
- Where I don't think your 100% correct (and I'm being literal/picky) is that I think he has a passive mid-control on both channels (or at least the normal channel). On both channels of his amp, you can see the 2nd input jack was replaced with a knob. This is likely a 10, 15 or 25k potentiometer that can fatten up, but not boost the mids IF PASSIVE. So he doesn't just have treble and bass on controls, but also mid.
- Brown said the trem circuit was replaced with a mid-boost circuit. The language Brown uses hear is interesting when taken literally. Its one thing to disconnect the trem and add a mid knob - two separate and unrelated mods as far as circuitry. Yet Brown seems to imply the trem circuit was changed to boost the mids - I have no idea how, but all I know is there is a tube in this circuit and I wonder if the mid boost is active, repurposing that tube. There are only a few effective ways I'm aware of to get a mid boost in a Fender amp - the stock tone-stack cannot accomplish a mid boost. One way is replacing the tone-stack with a modified James or Baxandall circuit, but you risk losing the Fender-voicing one that channel and this mod would not be replacing the tremolo circuit as implied by Brown's quote However, I think you could probably use the trem tube for an active eq / mid-boost - I have no idea how or what the circuit looks like, but I've always thought that might be the approach they took.
- There is clearly reverb on his amp's rhythm channel, but DR's don't have reverb on their normal channel, which we have been assuming is the channel Trey uses for rhythm. This likely means that Trey's amp is simply modded to have reverb on both channels - a simple mod requiring changing one lead IIRC, thus this is very likely the case. I think Trey also has reverb on his leads, but I don't think its as audible - however, I can imagine (or anticipate) someone arguing he doesn't have reverb on the lead channel - it makes sense to turn off reverb for leads because you'd cut through better and be more front & center / present. IF we hypothetically, just to cover all bases, assume he doesn't have reverb on the leads, then I think we'd have a lot more to consider about how his amp is modded: is the reverb switched to only the normal channel and the mid-boost replacing the trem is still on the 'trem' channel? Is the mid-boost that replaced the trem switched to only the normal channel and the 'trem' channel is now a reverb/rhythm channel? Or was the trem never changed to a mid-boost and a mid-boost is achieved some other way in the normal channel? Clearly its more parsimonious to assume the normal channel is a rhythm channel with reverb added to it and the trem channel is now a lead channel with reverb and some sort of mid-boost circuit.
2) I'm 99% certain Trey runs his DR through his Bruno cab loaded with Celestion Blue Alnico speakers. There is less certainty about what speaker is in his actual DR - its a blue frame and doesn't quite look like a Weber (Weber says that Trey owns at least one 50w Blue Dog), I think some people wondered if it was a Fender Blue Frame speaker, etc. Either way, thats not whats mic'ed when he uses the DR, but rather the Bruno cab. In a 412, a Blue would sound full enough. In a 112, I think it would sound thin and a Gold would be a better choice. For a cheaper, ceramic, alternative, I'm loving my CL80, which is the speaker in his Bogner Shiva. Trey uses V30's with his Mesa Boogie MKIII in his 2 212 cabinets.
3) Yes, Trey runs through his Bruno cab with the DR, his homemade 2 212's with his Mesa, but seems to usually just directly mic his Shiva.
Heady - thanks for your very insightful response. This is extremely helpful and useful.
And I think it underscores how little we know about that amp and how its set up. Can we ask Brian Brown for some clarification and detail on what the mods were and how they work? Anyone know how to do that?
You really got me wondering about how he set up the mid-boost and the reverb for Ch. 1. I'm also curious about the speakers for the DR, b/c he didn't have that when he first switched to the DR. And i've definitely seen photos of the DR mic'd directly.
Some photos would really help, too, so we can see how its dialed in and perhaps it will shed some light on what functions each channel has.
Quote from: Hoody on January 14, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
Heady - thanks for your very insightful response. This is extremely helpful and useful.
And I think it underscores how little we know about that amp and how its set up. Can we ask Brian Brown for some clarification and detail on what the mods were and how they work? Anyone know how to do that?
You really got me wondering about how he set up the mid-boost and the reverb for Ch. 1. I'm also curious about the speakers for the DR, b/c he didn't have that when he first switched to the DR. And i've definitely seen photos of the DR mic'd directly.
Some photos would really help, too, so we can see how its dialed in and perhaps it will shed some light on what functions each channel has.
Its nearly impossible to say for sure. Its fun to try to figure this stuff out, but most important is I'm digging my tone - sounds like you are too. But in the end, I think that the core tone of the amp is still that of an old Fender. After Carruth got his hands on it, I'm sure its just about the best sounding DR out there, but any old DR in good shape will get a decent way to that sound I think.
I don't think we will ever know more about the mid boost circuit, but the most helpful to me was that there are pics of his MKIII's settings, which I have dialed in and found that the lead settings really tighten up the bass and smooth out drive - thick and midrang-focused while not diminishing treble because that kills the texture, liveliness, bite and ability to cut-through the mix. I find the Boss PQ4 and Ibanez PQ9 give me those qualities in a lead boost. If I can use that with my DR, its kinda almost easier and better than trying out some crazy mods!
As far as the DR mic'ed directly - I think there is a BB quote that says he had a Celestion Alnico Blue in the DR, but a shot of the back of the DR a couple years ago (which I was referring to in my post above) was a different blue colored speaker. Its possibly he had a Blue in there and put it in the Bruno at some point.?. Just a guess...
At this point the only mod I'm considering is a simple passive midrange mod. I had one on my last DR and I'm kicking myself for not remembering the circuit details. I think I'm going to use a 10k pot, leaving he 6.8k resistor between the 10k mid pot and the bass pot, which will set the minimum midrange level at the stock voicing of the amp and the max at 16.8k ohms, which should be a noticeable thickening of the tone. A pic of Trey's amp might help me tell what value pot he has, but I just went ahead and tried the other mod I think Trey has and I didn't like it, so I think my ears can tell me as much as a pic now.
I was under the impression that Trey only uses one channel of the DR these days and it appears to be the 'vibrato' channel.
MSG 2010:
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z78/sereantpepper/meatsticknyemsg2010.jpg)
St. Louis 2012:
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/399715_10150995833366290_29807794_n.jpg)
If you look at this photo from Trey.com, it looks like he is only using the vibrato channel. Nothing plugged into Ch. 1. It also looks like the DR is not mic'd.
The Mesa is also there, so perhaps he's just using that, but from this photo it looks like he's using the DR and running into his Languedoc cab. Which would mean he's using the Vintage 30's with the DR.
http://trey.com/photos/trey-anastasio-band-312011/
I saw a couple other photos where you could tell there was an extra knob on both Ch. 1 and Ch. 2. So the mid boost was likely added to both. Not sure about whether reverb was added to ch. 1, or how that worked. Maybe it was just reverb knob added to Ch. 1, and mid boost to Ch. 2.
Quote from: Down_With_Sco on January 14, 2014, 05:30:59 PM
I was under the impression that Trey only uses one channel of the DR these days and it appears to be the 'vibrato' channel.
MSG 2010:
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z78/sereantpepper/meatsticknyemsg2010.jpg)
St. Louis 2012:
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/399715_10150995833366290_29807794_n.jpg)
Quote from: Hoody on January 14, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
If you look at this photo from Trey.com, it looks like he is only using the vibrato channel. Nothing plugged into Ch. 1. It also looks like the DR is not mic'd.
The Mesa is also there, so perhaps he's just using that, but from this photo it looks like he's using the DR and running into his Languedoc cab. Which would mean he's using the Vintage 30's with the DR.
http://trey.com/photos/trey-anastasio-band-312011/
I saw a couple other photos where you could tell there was an extra knob on both Ch. 1 and Ch. 2. So the mid boost was likely added to both. Not sure about whether reverb was added to ch. 1, or how that worked. Maybe it was just reverb knob added to Ch. 1, and mid boost to Ch. 2.
Nice find.
I should say, I haven't been following the gear as much lately, so the fact he's using one channel is news to me.
I'm pretty sure the knob is just passive mid control replacing both the 2nd inputs. I don't think a second reverb control would be easy because there is only one reverb circuit (a second mid pot is easy because there are two tone stacks).
The DR sounds good with V30's too, lot of upper mids to my ear. He might just be using his volume pedal to go from rhythm to lead, but you said the Mesa was up there too - he often has an extra amp on stage as backup, but could hypothetically be using one for lead and one for rhythm.
Here is a video grab from Brooklyn 2004 - you can see the 'Y' cable going into the Fender and he has the Bruno mic'd.
(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy317/aderose76/Image6_zps89ebf7c5.jpg)
I just got my Artinger last week and have been playing it thought this with the V30 and it gets as close as you can to 'The Tone' without being Trey IMHO!
I also just got a Loop-Master switcher last week too with A/B on the end and plug into both channels - pretty sweet!
(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy317/aderose76/vintage-sound-22-blonde-beige-gold_zps68b3ee8e.jpg)
DESCRIPTION
The Vintage Sound Vintage 22 is essentially an all hand-wired, all USA made, 60's era Fender Deluxe Reverb, but slightly modified with definite improvements. At the root is, of course, the AB763 blackface circuit.
What are these improvements?
1) One thing you'll notice is the addition of a "MIDDLE" tone control on Channel 2. This, of course, was not on the original Deluxe Reverb. So, why did Vintage Sound decide to add it in? Well, first of all, it absolutely does nothing to hurt the integrity of the circuit or tone. The original Fender circuit actually had a fixed "MIDDLE" that was set permanently at 6.8k. Vintage Sound removed this resistor from the circuit and replaced it with a much more versatile 10k potentiometer. The result is you now have the ability to adjust this frequency range without compromising the original tone. If you want it to sound precisely like a 65 Deluxe Reverb, just turn the pot to around 6-7 and you're there. You want to scoop the mids a touch, pull back. Warn the tone a bit, turn up.
2) Also included is a very nifty reverb dwell control which is on the rear of the chassis. Obviously, this too was omitted on the original circuit, but it comes in quite handy for adjusting the amount of decay the reverb has. Nice!
3) Another smart alteration is the incorporation of a Diaz based tremolo mod that Vintage Sound does. This accomplishes a few things... You'll notice the Vibrato has the ability to be slower than stock Fenders. The vibrato being too fast was always a complaint people had with vintage Fender Deluxes (and still do to this day). The other advantage this gives is when you turn the dial all the way down, you switch off the vibrato circuit, bypassing it and leaving you with a cleaner, more pure signal. The result is a slightly more present tone, and a bit of a bump in volume. Furthermore, with the older Deluxe Reverbs, you can hear a "ticking" sound with the vibrato. This is caused by several design flaws in the original circuit allowing the LFO signal to leak into the audio path. These issues have been addressed with better routing of the wires, superior components, and filtering of the oscillator output.
So, what do you end up with?
A truly amazing sounding Deluxe Reverb that's truly better than an original with nothing modified in a way that disrupts the original tone.
Specifications:
Wattage: 22 watts
Preamp Tubes: 4 x 12AX7, 2 X 12AT7
Power Tubes: 2 x 6V6 (optional 2x6L6)
Rectifier: 1 x 5AR4
Front Controls: Channel 1: Volume, Treble, Bass
Channel 2: Volume, Treble, Middle, Bass, Reverb, Speed, Intensity
Rear Controls: Dwell (Very cool custom feature for controlling the reverb decay time!)
Effects: Tube Driven Spring Reverb, Tube Vibrato
Speaker: WGS Veteran 30 (A better version of the Celestion Vintage 30)
Inputs: 2 Inputs
Auxiliary Input: RCA Footswitch Jack
Extension Speaker Jack: External Speaker Jack
Circuit Construction: All Point-to-Point, Hand-wired
Cabinet Construction: Dove-tail jointed solid pine w/Baltic Birch Plywood baffle and back panels
Pilot Light: Blue Amp Jewel
Combo Dimensions: 17.5" High x 24.5" Wide x 9 1/2" Deep (50 lbs)
Optional Accessories: Two Button Footswitch, Padded Cover
Since it's a Y cable, he must be blending the two channels? How do you think he's EQing them?
Are there any TAB photos from that era? Albeit he's EQing differently I would think.
Is it a Y or one of those dual cables that are two separate cables electrically, but bound together simply by the insulation (plastic coating)?
If its a Y, somehow his DR's channels are in phase. Maybe having reverb on both channels would do that...
The pictures I posted prove he no longer uses the Y cable on the Fender.... and he hardly uses the Fender now days anyways with his Bogners.
I think it's a dual cable - just because of the fact the he has a footswitch labeled Fender Amp with Lead and Rhythm written on it.
Down is right - I can't keep up with Trey and amps haha! But that is why I settled on the Deluxe Reverb (well Vintage 22) - it's perfect for home use and playing backyard gigs -
I went back and watched a couple of clips from the IT DVD, and there Trey has the split/Y cable going into the first Deluxe, with no mic on it. The Bruno is mic'd, and there is no Languedoc cab.
He also has the second Deluxe on stage, and that one is mic'd. However, it looks like there is only 1 cable going into the second channel.
I think the long and short of it is that Trey actually switches around how he's using an amp pretty frequently. Just from this thread we've seen that at various times he's used a lot of different approaches. From mic'ing the Delxue itself, running it into the Bruno, using a Y cable, using just one cable, etc.
While we haven't yet received the goal of close up photos of his Deluxe settings, I'd think its fairly safe to assume they probably change slightly from time to time as well. I have a '67 blackface AB763 amp, and to me those settings are all really good. They all have that tone and changing them a bit here and there doesn't really get you away from it.
Still - i'd love to see close up photos of the DR, too. I'm curious what the extra knobs are and how he has all the settings.
Quote from: Hoody on January 16, 2014, 09:44:06 AM
I went back and watched a couple of clips from the IT DVD, and there Trey has the split/Y cable going into the first Deluxe, with no mic on it. The Bruno is mic'd, and there is no Languedoc cab.
He also has the second Deluxe on stage, and that one is mic'd. However, it looks like there is only 1 cable going into the second channel.
I think the long and short of it is that Trey actually switches around how he's using an amp pretty frequently. Just from this thread we've seen that at various times he's used a lot of different approaches. From mic'ing the Delxue itself, running it into the Bruno, using a Y cable, using just one cable, etc.
While we haven't yet received the goal of close up photos of his Deluxe settings, I'd think its fairly safe to assume they probably change slightly from time to time as well. I have a '67 blackface AB763 amp, and to me those settings are all really good. They all have that tone and changing them a bit here and there doesn't really get you away from it.
Still - i'd love to see close up photos of the DR, too. I'm curious what the extra knobs are and how he has all the settings.
Thanks Hoody - spot on!
- We (as of yet) don't have a pic of his settings
- He changes up his gear, but however many wires he has won't (likely) help us guess what mods are done
- A good Deluxe will cover those tones
I was originally hoping to see:
- His treble knob setting because I was trying a mod that decreases treble and I expected if he had it done, his knob would be set pretty high. I tried that mod and didn't like it - whether or not its done on his amp.
- His additional knob, assuming its a midrange knob, could help determine the specifics of the circuit (did he leave the 6.8K resistor?) and its value (10k, 15k, 25k, 50k).
- His Intensity and Speed knob settings. I've never heard him use the trem on the DR, but I didn't like the trem disconnect mod on my DR. Is it replaced, as BB suggests, with a midrange boost?? Is it just turned down and left in the amp's circuit? Are the pot repurposed for something else entirely?
But either way, this thread resulted in an interesting discussion. And Hoody said it: a good ole DR will get you most of the way there. I tried many mods and generally prefer the amp pretty much stock aside from a speaker change, pulling V1 (which I might try replacing), and fixing the clicking in the tremolo circuit. I might try a midrange pot eventually... More so than to replicate Trey, I think the idea is to learn from others to get the best tone possible!
As essentially a three knob amp (volume, treble and bass), I think its pretty easy to setup. The (pre)amp seems to need a certain amount of bass to come to life - on my amp, I can hear that happen (the noise floor jumps a bit) around 2.75, but my 3 on the dial, I have too much bass. I might as well measure the bass pot with a micrometer and use a fixed value (resistor)! Then I pretty much do treble to taste depending on the volume and venue.
For what it's worth, I own a DRRI. Yes, I know a DRRI is apples to oranges to a vintage deluxe.
IMO, the stock DRRI speaker is complete junk. No idea why Fender chooses to use this speaker. I swapped out with 25W Weber 12F150 speaker and JJ's. I may swap in a Weber Blue Dog or Celestion G12-65.
Here are the modes that were professional done on my DRRI.
1. Added a Mid Pot (installed in the back of amp. Only works on the Vibrato Channel. I believe this is a standard limitation off adding Mid Control. From my experience, the Mid adds just enough, but don't expect it to
be that significant. Probably something to do with the DRRI's EQ.
2. Added a Negative Feedback Control Knob on the back of the amp. The range of the knob can go from normal to loose. This Mod is my favorite.
3. Bright Cap was clipped.
4. The Vibrato is removed from Circuit.
5. Both Normal and Vibrato channels are connected to the Reverb
I am happy with the tones of this amp, and is a great base for Trey tones.
The mods i found i like the best are in this order...
1. Bright Cap
2. Speaker Swap
3. Negative Feedback Control
4. Having Reverb wired to both channels.
No Amp alone will give you Trey tones. Some will provide a better base to start from than others. I also have a Mark III, both Amps are worlds apart from each other, and neither one can really nail the tone. Which always reinforces the well known concept that tone is more in the fingers, versus in the gear.
What is negative feedback control? I haven't heard of that mod and just curious.
I've actually played a lot of old blackface fenders and find that they really do get you pretty close, especially if you're using a ROSS, at least for the cleans.
I have a huge problem getting the OD tone right. I don't know if this should be another thread, but I have a huge volume jump w/ the TS-9's, especially if i use Trey's settings. And they also sound too dirty and garbled. I believe this is because Trey really does a TON of the dirt/volume work with his volume knobs. So a cranked TS-9 for him is not very loud, and it isn't that dirty.
I actually get a better Trey OD tone by overdriving my amp slightly and using just the Ross, as opposed to getting the OD from the TS9. But likely b/c i ain't Trey and haven't mastered adjusting my volume knob on the fly to get the right mix of volume/tone/dirt.
This is a nice link.
http://fenderguru.com/amps/deluxe-reverb
My NFB mod is controllable using a knob, so I can adjust how aggressive (or loose) I want the amp to get. Both the Mid and NFB knobs are in the back of the amp.
A negative feedback loop, at least in a guitar amp, is often in the power section I believe. It sends some signal back, out of phase, to cancel out or dampen part of the original signal. The part of the signal NFB dampens is certain (upper) harmonic content. Too much (harmonic content / distortion, or too little filtering of that distortion) is heard as bothersome distortion, too little (harmonic content, or too much filtering) makes the amp sound deadened. In some guitar amps, this is where the presence control takes place. IIRC, with too little nfb, there is also more noise.
Quote from: Hoody on January 16, 2014, 12:38:29 PM
What is negative feedback control? I haven't heard of that mod and just curious.
I've actually played a lot of old blackface fenders and find that they really do get you pretty close, especially if you're using a ROSS, at least for the cleans.
I have a huge problem getting the OD tone right. I don't know if this should be another thread, but I have a huge volume jump w/ the TS-9's, especially if i use Trey's settings. And they also sound too dirty and garbled. I believe this is because Trey really does a TON of the dirt/volume work with his volume knobs. So a cranked TS-9 for him is not very loud, and it isn't that dirty.
I actually get a better Trey OD tone by overdriving my amp slightly and using just the Ross, as opposed to getting the OD from the TS9. But likely b/c i ain't Trey and haven't mastered adjusting my volume knob on the fly to get the right mix of volume/tone/dirt.
Are you leaving your TS9 on for clean and using your volume knob to clean it up? Thats what I always do, but I find at lower volumes, my cleans lack the shimmer and liveliness I need, yet without the TS they lack the compression and midrange that Trey has (ie, with only the Ross on). So recently I've been using my MXR 6-Band EQ after my Ross as either a mild flat boost, buffer, or tone-shaper to give some shine to the cleans when playing at moderate volumes. When I crank up the amp a bit more, just using my volume knob is fine because the amp is compressed enough to keep my cleans sounding full and chimey.
As far as a clean or dirty amp, the Mesa MKIII is never going to be dirty on the clean channel with Trey's gear, but IIRC he did start dialing in his DR a bit dirtier at some point. I also think he uses the Bogner Shiva's dirt/lead channel dirtier (but there was another thread where people were saying his lead tone was too saturated this year and I think this is why). Sometimes I find my delay sounds shitty into an overdriven amp, but its been ok when my DR is breaking up a bit. But I also tend to setup with a cleaner signal - especially if I am at home and not trying to blow the roof off. I think just a bit of overdrive and compression is desirable when using the DR, but its not usually until I've got a drummer in the mix that it seems reasonable to turn up that loud!
Have you tried the 2nd input to see if your OD sounds better there? Sometimes I think the volume and treble padding of that input sounds better, other times I think it sound too dampened. Also, some people say Trey used a 12AT7, which I've tried a couple times as well as a 5751 and I always prefer a 12AX7.
Very interesting Hady...no I don't use the TS-9 for my clean at all. Just a Ross and the amp. And I find that compresses and sounds great. I definitely don't like the TS-9 on for my clean.
I find that the TS-9's, at least in my set up, sound better w/ the levels turned down a bit. Trey has often mentioned that his Ross sort of counteracts the volume boost caused by the TS9. But i can't really seem to achieve that. I've also heard he likes the TS-9 volume at max b/c it sounds best, and I agree with that. My only problem doing that is the volume gets a good deal louder, even w/ the Ross chasing it.
Perhaps his volume pedal at the end of his chain keeps the overall level in check
Quote from: tsbot on January 15, 2014, 07:36:35 PM
Down is right - I can't keep up with Trey and amps haha! But that is why I settled on the Deluxe Reverb (well Vintage 22) - it's perfect for home use and playing backyard gigs -
I think that's simply an old A/B box... He uses the same amp switcher whether he's using the Mesa and Fender, Mesa and Bogner, Mesa and Victoria.
Does anybody how Trey uses the channels on the Mesa for clean and dirt tones? Does he only use one channel?
Quote from: Hoody on January 16, 2014, 04:14:47 PM
Very interesting Hady...no I don't use the TS-9 for my clean at all. Just a Ross and the amp. And I find that compresses and sounds great. I definitely don't like the TS-9 on for my clean.
I find that the TS-9's, at least in my set up, sound better w/ the levels turned down a bit. Trey has often mentioned that his Ross sort of counteracts the volume boost caused by the TS9. But i can't really seem to achieve that. I've also heard he likes the TS-9 volume at max b/c it sounds best, and I agree with that. My only problem doing that is the volume gets a good deal louder, even w/ the Ross chasing it.
I used to struggle with that too - I still do sometimes, but I'm getting better.
I think part of maxing the volume on the TS is that is hits the comp harder, which is similar to turning up the sustain knob, thus when he turns his volume down for cleans, his compressor is keeping him louder (than if the TS9s volume isn't cranked).
Try messing around with this sometime when you can crank the amp up a bit more. I'll bet you get a better clean to dirty transition. Also maybe try a boost somewhere otherwise (before or after the comp).
Quote from: Down_With_Sco on January 16, 2014, 04:25:55 PM
Quote from: tsbot on January 15, 2014, 07:36:35 PM
Down is right - I can't keep up with Trey and amps haha! But that is why I settled on the Deluxe Reverb (well Vintage 22) - it's perfect for home use and playing backyard gigs -
I think that's simply an old A/B box... He uses the same amp switcher whether he's using the Mesa and Fender, Mesa and Bogner, Mesa and Victoria.
Does anybody how Trey uses the channels on the Mesa for clean and dirt tones? Does he only use one channel?
Does he use the same switch for the Mesa? He usually has a jack going into the front for the footswitch that toggles the lead on and off, but I don't think his AB box would work there. He also has his settings marked on gaffer tape for the lead channel of the Mesa. When I've used his settings, its less bass and a bit overdriven.
Well however he uses the Mesa foot switches are separate from the amp A/B box I'm suggesting. All I know is I've seen that AB box in many pictures and webcasts from 2011.
I'm just interested to know if Trey does use more than one channel on the Mesa these days.
Quote from: Down_With_Sco on January 17, 2014, 12:27:58 AM
Well however he uses the Mesa foot switches are separate from the amp A/B box I'm suggesting. All I know is I've seen that AB box in many pictures and webcasts from 2011.
I'm just interested to know if Trey does use more than one channel on the Mesa these days.
From what I saw NYE there was a bogner head in Mark's spot but I haven't examined pictures to see if it was on the whole night.
Quote from: fulltone1989 on January 17, 2014, 09:54:46 AM
Quote from: Down_With_Sco on January 17, 2014, 12:27:58 AM
Well however he uses the Mesa foot switches are separate from the amp A/B box I'm suggesting. All I know is I've seen that AB box in many pictures and webcasts from 2011.
I'm just interested to know if Trey does use more than one channel on the Mesa these days.
From what I saw NYE there was a bogner head in Mark's spot but I haven't examined pictures to see if it was on the whole night.
You guys might be able to tell... I almost never watch the videos, just listen. But I thought he had two Bogner's: a combo and a head.
He might have had the Mesa, or maybe it was the Bogner head.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 16, 2014, 04:43:20 PM
Quote from: Hoody on January 16, 2014, 04:14:47 PM
Very interesting Hady...no I don't use the TS-9 for my clean at all. Just a Ross and the amp. And I find that compresses and sounds great. I definitely don't like the TS-9 on for my clean.
I find that the TS-9's, at least in my set up, sound better w/ the levels turned down a bit. Trey has often mentioned that his Ross sort of counteracts the volume boost caused by the TS9. But i can't really seem to achieve that. I've also heard he likes the TS-9 volume at max b/c it sounds best, and I agree with that. My only problem doing that is the volume gets a good deal louder, even w/ the Ross chasing it.
I used to struggle with that too - I still do sometimes, but I'm getting better.
I think part of maxing the volume on the TS is that is hits the comp harder, which is similar to turning up the sustain knob, thus when he turns his volume down for cleans, his compressor is keeping him louder (than if the TS9s volume isn't cranked).
Try messing around with this sometime when you can crank the amp up a bit more. I'll bet you get a better clean to dirty transition. Also maybe try a boost somewhere otherwise (before or after the comp).
I was thinking about this some more.
I wonder if, since your setting up the amp without a TS9 for cleans, if your dialing in less treble / bass to make it more midrange-focused to sound like Trey's cleans (obviously our amps, volume and speakers differ, but I have my treble at about 7)? If so, when you turn on the TS9, your not only getting a volume boost, but 'double' the midrange-focused (since you already dialed it in that way for cleans). I tried my cleans without the TS9 last night and did not dig the transition either. Then I took my PQ9 and dialed it in to be just about as loud as my cleaner TS9 with a similar midrange character (mid-hump at 700hz, see pic below), but a slightly flatter EQ and used it for a clean tone-shaper/boost. I thought it had really good results (probably especially for the low-volume scenario).
(http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z342/Jon_Weingarden/Output-ToneSweep.jpg)
At low volumes, as I mentioned before, I find rolling back my volume to clean up a TS leaves me with a dark and quiet clean sound. At higher volumes, the amp is compressed enough that my cleans are present and shimmering. So sometimes at lower volumes, I would add a boost or EQ to my signal that I would turn on after rolling back my volume knob. Using the PQ9 instead got a similar result, but the clean was totally clean whereas a TS9 isn't completely clean just using my volume knob. I also think the slightly dirty TS sometimes sounds great for cleans and sometimes bugs me. Without the upper harmonics of that overdrive, I definitely needed more treble in my PQ9 to cut-through.
This is actually really helpful, I think you may be right. I do generally cut my treble way, way down. Like 1-3ish on the dial. The bass I keep higher, maybe like 4-5. On my amps with a mid, i put that at like 7.
So maybe you're right, when I kick on the TS9, i'm getting 2x the mid and not enough treble.
The problem with that is that I really, really like my clean sound. And I like the light TS-9 sound for notes (but not so much for chords). For chords the TS-9's just seem a little too garbled and muddy to me. I love it on notes though, the sustain and "sing" is really good.
I'll try turning up the treble on the amp and see if that helps.
Out of curiosity, what era of tone do people prefer?
I think mine is pretty easily the '97/'98 period. I re-listened to the fall '97 Auburn Hills show and Island tour recently, and there was something about that tone that really stood out to me. It was actually even different from the Great Went '97 tone (which I also loved). Its hard to describe, but to me it sounds as if the Ross/Deluxe Reverb are doing their very best job of catching the Languedoc's tone. Like you can hear the full hollowness, he plucks a note and you hear it kind of in the back. It resonates and reverberates.
If you listen to Hampton Comes Alive (particularly clean songs like cry baby cry, or train song), that tone is also fantastic, but sounds like his DR is overdriven slightly less and he has a bit more squish in the Ross on.
Very interested in other people's takes.
Quote from: Hoody on January 17, 2014, 03:26:34 PM
Out of curiosity, what era of tone do people prefer?
I think mine is pretty easily the '97/'98 period. I re-listened to the fall '97 Auburn Hills show and Island tour recently, and there was something about that tone that really stood out to me. It was actually even different from the Great Went '97 tone (which I also loved). Its hard to describe, but to me it sounds as if the Ross/Deluxe Reverb are doing their very best job of catching the Languedoc's tone. Like you can hear the full hollowness, he plucks a note and you hear it kind of in the back. It resonates and reverberates.
If you listen to Hampton Comes Alive (particularly clean songs like cry baby cry, or train song), that tone is also fantastic, but sounds like his DR is overdriven slightly less and he has a bit more squish in the Ross on.
Very interested in other people's takes.
97/98 for me too. The live in Brooklyn tone was nice too. In particular the winston-salem box set. The tone on Weekapaug groove is pure bliss. No idea why he changed it up.
Quote from: Hoody on January 17, 2014, 03:26:34 PM
Out of curiosity, what era of tone do people prefer?
I think mine is pretty easily the '97/'98 period. I re-listened to the fall '97 Auburn Hills show and Island tour recently, and there was something about that tone that really stood out to me. It was actually even different from the Great Went '97 tone (which I also loved). Its hard to describe, but to me it sounds as if the Ross/Deluxe Reverb are doing their very best job of catching the Languedoc's tone. Like you can hear the full hollowness, he plucks a note and you hear it kind of in the back. It resonates and reverberates.
If you listen to Hampton Comes Alive (particularly clean songs like cry baby cry, or train song), that tone is also fantastic, but sounds like his DR is overdriven slightly less and he has a bit more squish in the Ross on.
Very interested in other people's takes.
I like the Mesa/Ocedoc combo of summer 2012/NYE 2012. I'm also pretty into the tone he had going in late 95 (Albany YEM, 12/31 Mike's, etc)
Quote from: No Nice Guy on January 17, 2014, 04:39:59 PM
I like the Mesa/Ocedoc combo of summer 2012/NYE 2012. I'm also pretty into the tone he had going in late 95 (Albany YEM, 12/31 Mike's, etc)
I totally agree Guy....good taste!! ;D
Interesting, and thanks for sharing. I went back to listen to those eras a bit just to remind myself exactly what the tone was like. To me the 2012 summer Ocedoc/Mesa sound is a little bit thinner, a little less warm, and a little more harsh. It still sounds really good, but just (to my ear at least) not quite as smooth. As if he has the treble a little higher, or the Ross down a bit.
I actually think that may also have to do with the guitar. I know some of the more recent Languedocs have brass (as opposed to bone), and that can make the guitar really harmonic, but also a little harsher sounding. Which may be what I think i'm hearing in 2012.
Pretty subjective question, we all have very different tastes. Even when listening to one guitarists' sound. Which is a credit to how much everyone here pays attention and knows their stuff.
I like that '95/'96 sound, too. Jazzier. Really round sounding to me (amazing how hard it is to really find the right word to articulate what you hear with your ears).
Fulltone - I'm not sure how much merit this has, but one theory is that he didn't "change it up" for the sake of getting a new sound or anything like that. Rather, a guitarists hearing really changes as time goes on if they play like that for a career. It sounds different to them. I'm not old enough and i haven't played enough gigs in front of 70k fans to really know how valid that is, but that is the word I've received from other professionals. What sounded good, just doesn't anymore. So they -- like us -- keep seeking tone.
I also thought 2012 sounded thin. I've been trying to get through entire summer tours straight through and got tired of the 2012 tone. It was also the second year he was panned rather than really wide stereo. I really enjoyed some aspects of this year with the bogner, but it's hard to be a live one (the only problem with the rest of that era is recording quality isn't as good).
I just listened to the Island Tour YEM with this discussion in mind. His cleans sound almost like he's using a parked wah. Is that the Ross? It's a very different clean than that studio LxL we have been discussing.
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Its really hard to say what any specific tone is caused by just from listening to it. I was only familiar with the limb by limb tone b/c I was working on trying to get it. Trey used to use the Ross w/ a lot more compression (say like 94-97), and then started turning it down a bit.
He also could turn things up or down on the DR for tour, just moving the volume from 3-4 (the sweetspot), to 4-5 changes it quite a bit. And on the Languedoc his options are pretty wide open and change the tone a ton. I'd guess that he may have just gone into series on his pickups, I think that is what it sounds like most to me on that YEM.
He also had a cab on tour, which sounds different than straight out of the DR. I think sometimes in the studio he goes more straight out of a Princeton or DR than you'd think. Now he actually bypasses all his pedals on tour quite a bit.