Just wanted to pass along some information I obtained from C.J. Sutton at Weber Speakers. I had emailed him asking some questions about Trey's speaker used in his deluxe(s). For a while I had been wondering about this as in the pictures posted (on this forum) it appears that it is definitely an Alinco of some type, based on the Magnet Cover usage (Ceramics don't have the covers) but the brand and or specific type had eluded me. One thing to note is that I had a follow up call with him and he corrected himself, in that he recalled a conversation will Bill C. when they ordered the speakers for Trey. It was in fact a Weber Alinco Blue Dog 8ohm, 50 Watt, Light Dope. (I think he said they had ordered 3-4 of them for his amps) You will notice he mentioned Ceramic in the email to me, however is was referring to a recommendation in regards to my specific amp and sound I wanted.
I learned quite few things about speakers in general so the call was time well spent. We talked about the tonal differences between an Alinco and a Ceramic and his information seemed very logical. He mentioned that the Alinco will break up quicker however you can use a much hight wattage than your amp may specify (Deluxe being a 22 watt amp) to achieve an overall smoother tone. In this case he said Trey is using a 50 watt Alinco even though the stock speakers in Deluxe may come with 100 watt "ceramic" Jensens. The amp is pushing 22 watts but more than likely quite a bit more when its cranked. So in relation I said "why not just use a 100 watt Alinco speaker in the Deluxe" and he said "its like trying to drive a semi-truck with a 4 cylinder engine". I am paraphrasing a bit as I can't recall everything but the basics were made clear to me. In my case I needed something for my 12 watt 57 tweed deluxe and he recommended a Ceramic Weber Blue Dog (vs an Alinco) because I was looking for less breakup on lower volumes.
C.J. also mentioned that the reason the for the use of the 50 watt Alinco Blue Dog in Trey's Deluxe is that he was looking for some breakup within the amp at reasonable stage volumes (Keep in mind there is obviously much more to the amp than this as it was also modded by Bill Carruth as has been document elsewhere). That makes sense as the 100 Watt Ceramic Jenson's that the new ones come with don't break up that quickly until its pretty maxed as its generally a clean amp. I am not sure how the vintage Blackface 65 Deluxe's came stock but as I recall they had Ceramic Utah 12's that were rated at 100 watt or maybe 75?. The pictures I have seen don't indicate that they were an Alinco Based speaker when stock as there was no cover on the magnet indication a clear Ceramic.
My question was initially apples to oranges as the amps I discussed are two completely different animals however the information was great. In the end I feel pretty confident that he was not pulling my chain... as some sources about Trey's gear seem to do. I think its safe to say that Trey's Deluxe Reverbs have a 12 inch Alinco Blue Dog rated at 50 Watts with a light Dope. The picture posted within this forum seems to back this up as they look identical. So for whatever its worth there you go...!!
By the way... since he was so helpful and informative, I immediately ordered from him a 12 inch 50 Watt "Ceramic" Blue Dog with light Dope. The cost was only $105 as compared to around $250+ for the Alinco version. Different Speaker with a different purpose. Either one is not a bad price when considering we spend that on modded pedals etc...
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Email from C.J. @ Weber
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Hi,
Well, I can tell you that Trey does use our Blue Dog speaker in his Deluxe
Reverbs that Bill Carruth does for him. It is the ceramic Blue Dog, 50w,
light dope, which is what I would recommend for your 57 deluxe.
Hope that helps!
________________
C.J. Sutton
design / maintenance
Weber Speakers
www.tedweber.com
www.webervst.com/design
Carrying on in the tradition of Ted Weber
wow only 105? thats a great price you have to be kididng me..
i might ge tthis Delux afterall.
HunSanity, you may want to re-read the post. I chose a "Ceramic" Weber Blue Dog for my amp specifically (57 Tweed Deluxe). It cost $105 plus shipping. The info I got (from Weber and others) was that Trey uses a "Alinco" Weber Blue Dog 50 Watt, Light Dope. Very different than a Ceramic Speaker. The Alinco breaks up differently. The stock speakers on a DR are already Ceramic Jensons that may be 75 Watt. Hence there is no or very little breakup until it gets very loud. A 50 Watt Weber Alinco Blue in a DR would cause it to break up a bit sooner than with a similar ceramic. I am sure others can explain the differences better however keep this in mind otherwise you will be very disappointed and not get the sound you may want.
Call CJ at weber and see if he can put some better perspective on this for you. I just posted my experience with him in regards to what I did.
Enjoy.
okay thanks man.. im still up in there air as to which amp i will ultimately trade for / purchase.. but i will def look more into it if i end up going this rout and upgrading the speaker..
thanks again freen
ok stupid question, but is speaker replacement easy to do yourself?
It's interesting that Trey was using the Blue Dog, the Weber site says it's a British-Vox tone.
Quote from: picture_of_nectar on February 23, 2010, 01:10:07 PM
ok stupid question, but is speaker replacement easy to do yourself?
It's interesting that Trey was using the Blue Dog, the Weber site says it's a British-Vox tone.
Yes, speaker replacement is as easy as it gets. All you'll need is a screwdriver, and maybe a second set of hands, depending on how your chassis is set up in your cabinet. I know with my Fender HRD I had to remove the chassis to get to the speaker and it was easier having another person there as I took the chassis out, but typically it can be done with 1 person. Simply unplug the speaker, unscrew it from the baffle, and install the new one. Make sure you get the correct size of speaker and check the screw placement in relation to the speaker & the baffle that holds it in place. Also make sure you get the correct wattage/ohms for your amp.
another stupid Q...so as far as this "early breakup" talk.. considering that one wouldnt have the choice to try out a speaker or two before choosing.. would getting the Alinco 50 watt light D etc and putitng it in without making any other modifications (maybe some down the road if i found someone that knew how) sound good? me personally i dont ever really play that loud..ill know more about how loud i need to get after my first live gig in a few months but for now, just playing in the cave etc would that sound sick with that speaker?
again forgive me im not the most technical guy when it comes to this speaker stuff.. im coming along though so bear with me...but my direct to the point Q is... if i get a new fender DRRI and buy this speaker and throw it in, will it skip a beat or will it just sound sick as hell..?
thats not the way an amp works.
a reissue will sound like shit, without considerable mods, you can start with the speaker, but you gotta look at the shit components, and think this stuff is cheap shit...
any speaker has a significant break in period. anybody who says they dont doesnt have a fucking clue.
i would say that a DRRI is the WRONG amp for you man
you need something with a master volume control. in fact you might want to go solid state for dependability until you get playing out more. easier on the bank and much much much dependable.
if you like that warm creamy sound of a deluxe reverb the fender frontman 65r, is as the name implies, modeled after a 65 deluxe reverb.
the neat thing aside from the great spring reverb built in, its fucking bullet proof, likes pedals, and you can get all the breakup at lower volume you could want. it also get fucking LOUD when you crank it. they are great. and youll never need tubes ever.
a real gigging player should be swapping tubes multiple times a year, and NOS tubes are hundreds of dollars a set. Dont buy an amp that works for us, get an amp that meets your needs.
trey has lots of amps firing the best tubes, with the best tech in the business, and he still depends on multiple backups at every show/practice/etc ,
also an Amp is like a pair of sneakers. do you wear the same fucking shoes everyday at every occasion? just because somebody rocks the keds doesnt mean its a good idea. step back an say, if iam in a horrid mood, can i get a heavy sound out of my gear? or how clean is my clean?
personally I like lots of flexibility, with immortal durability, at any volume, without any clicks/pops when switching tones(effects, geets, amps)
i also look at how effective iam within the frequency range of a full band. i like to explore a variety of awkward octave ranges that would be impossible to get into on a regular guitar....
see where iam going??? the more you demand, the more complicated you solution. there is no such silver bullet. not even a 150k dumble tube amp will do everything you want. (see michael kang using 1 dumble and a two rock...)
okay, thnaks for the input i appreciate it.. it is dully noted and great usage of the Keds.. that was old school.
at this point i just want a nice tube amp that sounds really good. like i mentioned on an earlier post my father lent me one of his Peavey Classic 30's and i added it in to my rig going out into a peav classic 20 and it sounds freaking phenominal!! so to your point, and i couldnt agree more, go with what floats YOURE boat. great point dude. so i think i am working my dads ear enough and giving him the mess around where he is going to end up just giving it to me and ill be hooked up like a pig in shit..wearing Keds, of course..
side note, funny you mention solid state.. as it turns out, it is sounding more and more like i am going to be playing through a set of Roland solid states, which have a line out to the PA, and the guy running the show (father in law) keeps telling me they want me to run right into the PA without micing.. which i think is pretty f'ing lame but i have to do what i have to do and they dont have much room on the board and dont wan tthe potential issues that might come out of me micing..i disagree with them but im the new guy and its not a rock band anyway. so at this point there is a pretty good chance that whatever amp upgrade i make is staying in the man cave for now.. unless they find room for me on the board with a low (or high, i forget) impedence to mic myself to the board. so im going to give that a try and see what kind of tones i can pull out of these rolands.. for the most part ill be playing clean and jazzy like.. but will need some dist on a few tunes as well..so thye might do a better job at covering the diff styles i will be playing..anyway enough about me.. thanks agian for the input its always appreciated and at this point, needed...
well you cant beat a solid state for cleans man. ask waldo who does the best jerry mods around... hell tell you to put a solid state rectifier in your tube amp and to use a jerry buffer in the geet. cleaner than the cleanest clean my friend... we could always rustle up you an analog valve tube overdrive/distortion pedal to livin up the solid state for the heavier stuff. probably sound really cool.
Quote from: posternutbag on February 23, 2010, 03:46:58 PM
well you cant beat a solid state for cleans man. ask waldo who does the best jerry mods around... hell tell you to put a solid state rectifier in your tube amp and to use a jerry buffer in the geet. cleaner than the cleanest clean my friend... we could always rustle up you an analog valve tube overdrive/distortion pedal to livin up the solid state for the heavier stuff. probably sound really cool.
got you... yes im actually going to try out these rolands with my Silver tube screamers and wha etc and see how it sounds. it will prob end up being sick, watch..
One mention of your going to put a speaker in yourself is that after you disassemble everything and actually get the speaker in place be sure to just had tighten each bolt first in 45 degree order. DO NOT just crank down on the bolts. Hand tighten in an opposite order and then give a few light turns with your wrench on each one. It some ways its like putting in a toilet albeit much easier, but if you screw up and over tighten you can really mess up the padded area around the speaker and cause some issues. It's made to give slightly and settle in.
I agree with poster about the amps. Don't buy what everyone else is necessarily buying. I tried a Deluxe Reverb Reissue and liked it very much but..... In the end it was not my thing. I eventually traded it plus some cash for a 57 Tweed Deluxe which is actually hand wired. I liked a specific thing that it does and does well with my guitar. Because of the way AO wired my guitar I found that the Series and Split sounds gave nice semi clean/very clean but then the Parallel really kicked the amp into gear and allowed me to eliminate my need for a low setting overdrive. Between the custom pickups he made the buffer and the wiring it just turned out to be perfect and I did not expect that to happen. I demo'd it for him last week and he was very surprised just how powerful his pickups are when in Parallel configuration. I swapped the speaker to the ceramic weber blue dog specifically to get a little more headroom/volume out of the amp and thats it. Had I put the Alinco in there it would have got louder as well but also would break up pretty early. The 57 deluxe is loud but not as much as a Deluxe reverb. It can get close however when set up right.
Poster was also correct about solid state stuff. If you want to play squeaky clean try a roland or something along those lines. I had a Lab Series L5 that was great for Jerry tones. It was basically a solid state twin reverb with a great EQ system. Turn up the Treble and some mid's and cut the bass almost all the way and you have Jerry sounds. That does not work the same on a Deluxe Reverb however. You may need a little more EQ options.
I have heard many things about adding a solid state rectifier to a tube amp. I think Mercury did an article on this for certain amps. I did hear that it can help with getting more cleans. I would not recommend doing this installation however.
HunSanity, BTW, if you can get a semi-free classic 30 from your father go for it. Those are fun amps and great on a budget. There is nothing in my opinion wrong with a peavey classic 30. You could even experiment with a speaker swap should you want to try something different. Plus they don't look half bad if that matters to you. They have a nice vintage vibe. If I had to sell my Deluxe for the money I would look for one of those for home use and jams etc... I think it even has a master volume like Poster mentioned so you could dial it in for man-cave use as well. Plus I know it will sing live as I have seen many players use them and they can be loud. It's a nice six cabinet as well not too small and has enough space. I am assuming you were referring to an older one with the tweed covering. If you can get it grab it and be happy. You already mentioned you liked that sound so I think you answered your own question as to what amp to get. If you get it and don't like it email me and I will take it off your hands.
Look at old Magnatones as well. Great sounding stuff that can sometimes be had cheap.
Quote from: posternutbag on February 23, 2010, 03:10:26 PM
thats not the way an amp works.
a reissue will sound like shit, without considerable mods, you can start with the speaker, but you gotta look at the shit components, and think this stuff is cheap shit...
I'm gunna have to disagree here.
Maybe you think it's too expensive for the quality of parts in it or whatever, but even a stock DRRI doesn't sound like shit. Sure it's not vintage and it's not some botique amp, but imho even a crappy tube amp sounds better then a solid state amp imho. That said, the Fender doesn't even belong in the same room as my Rivera....
But poster is right, a new speaker is prolly the last component you want to buy if you are upgrading parts in the amp.
picture- am i to assume youve opened up your amp and seen whats in there? and noticed that over the past 20 years of DRRI, the components vary year to year, in a big way. you could likely upgrade your reissue with about 100 bucks in components, short of throwing a new tranny, and choke in there...
but without any doubt, there are good solid state amps-> see jerry garcia 0.-
you ever played out of a frontman 65r? kinda weird to bash it before you try it... the long and the short of it, is that there are plenty of terrible tube amps. in fact, the vast majorty are shit. same with solid state amplifiers... there are more than enough shitty amps around... with a nicely modeled solid state, you can have a very quite operation, and at higher wattages, plenty of headroom. go check the harmony central reviews for a frontman 65r and find a negative review? there isnt one. they are great amps. even to the guys who run tubedepot.com say they are great <- and i think they know more about amps than both of us.
Quote from: raisingfreen on February 23, 2010, 10:33:45 PM
HunSanity, BTW, if you can get a semi-free classic 30 from your father go for it. Those are fun amps and great on a budget. There is nothing in my opinion wrong with a peavey classic 30. You could even experiment with a speaker swap should you want to try something different. Plus they don't look half bad if that matters to you. They have a nice vintage vibe. If I had to sell my Deluxe for the money I would look for one of those for home use and jams etc... I think it even has a master volume like Poster mentioned so you could dial it in for man-cave use as well. Plus I know it will sing live as I have seen many players use them and they can be loud. It's a nice six cabinet as well not too small and has enough space. I am assuming you were referring to an older one with the tweed covering. If you can get it grab it and be happy. You already mentioned you liked that sound so I think you answered your own question as to what amp to get. If you get it and don't like it email me and I will take it off your hands.
Look at old Magnatones as well. Great sounding stuff that can sometimes be had cheap.
im with you on that.. the Classic 30 is sick. im liking the blue marvel so far and its smaller and portabe and the clean is a very nice clean with the reverb up and its fitting in great at practice fo rthe stuff we are doing..frank sinatra, nat king cole type stuff.... it really has fender like qualities IMO. i was mentioning how most likely i will be playing through Rolands at our gig due to the fac that my guys running the band (been since the 70's) are being particular about mee running to the board on a line out (which these rolands have) vs. micing say a peavey that im hoping for..so that said it looks like i might not even use my actual amp at a gig.. more so i will be a blend in player that only needs to cut through on a few solo's and some wah funk...
so im holding out hope that my pop gives in and just says "keep the 30" as he has a ton of them.. but he is in a band as well and likes to keep 2 of them at his buddy's for practice, and then 2 of them with a delta blues at his house.. so its to a point where he has more then he needs, but the way he sets up and runs 2 chorus pedals he need to play with 2 amps at all times, and doesnt wat to have to lug an amp to every practic. but its the small price he should pay for his son, right? hahah
its black by the way, which i think i actually preferr although i would be equally happy if i found a tweed... so im going to 1) see what i can do about getting my hotrod looked at and maybe tuned up.. 2) keep looking on craigslist to find a swap or a used affordable classic 30.. or maybe he will jus tgive me one..
and if you are interested in a classic 30 check out craiglist dude.. they pop up from time to time depending on your area..
Was not aware that you had a hotrod either. I have a good friend in town, Walker actually and he uses a hotrod deluxe. I think he sounds great though it. It has a nice overdrive built in and can also have a line out for recording via the preamp out section. You can try a speaker swap (if you want to try a new flavor)(try ebay) in there as well. Maybe try a Weber Blue that is double the wattage of the amp. So if the amp is 50watts get a 100watt Weber blue for example (just an opinion). It should give it more headroom as well. Walker got a tone tubby in his and it sounds great. That seems to be a great all around amp. It may not be vintage, hand wired or modded etc.... but it can get the job done and hold its own in a band. You sound like your just getting started in this band anyway so no need to break the bank. Keep that hotrod forever as a backup if you do end up getting into a band you really like. BTW, If by chance your in Maine and want to get a project started I am game.
Quote from: raisingfreen on February 24, 2010, 06:40:10 PM
Was not aware that you had a hotrod either. I have a good friend in town, Walker actually and he uses a hotrod deluxe. I think he sounds great though it. It has a nice overdrive built in and can also have a line out for recording via the preamp out section. You can try a speaker swap (if you want to try a new flavor)(try ebay) in there as well. Maybe try a Weber Blue that is double the wattage of the amp. So if the amp is 50watts get a 100watt Weber blue for example (just an opinion). It should give it more headroom as well. Walker got a tone tubby in his and it sounds great. That seems to be a great all around amp. It may not be vintage, hand wired or modded etc.... but it can get the job done and hold its own in a band. You sound like your just getting started in this band anyway so no need to break the bank. Keep that hotrod forever as a backup if you do end up getting into a band you really like. BTW, If by chance your in Maine and want to get a project started I am game.
yes, i actually think its pretty sweet some of you dudes have a HotRod as well. I was talking to walker actually about that on PM. he gave me some good stuff. yeah i think there is something going on with my hot rod and i have alway just sort of worked around it and tweeked the setting to hid the issie i have. IE too trebly / metalic sounding... so when i am playing through my TS's they hide all the POP it has etc. dont knwo how else to describe my issie other then there is too much POP when i chop a chord or pluck out a single note...but the TS's i have with the silver do a great job lessening that. so the whole reason i have been scratching my head lately is because i have to play a few jazz-esque tunes where i cant have ANY OD... even my Silver ALL the way down has too much crunch for say frank sinatra..so i have to play the amp straight up.. hence my issue. so far im holding on the th eclassic 30 until i have to give it back.. but im goin to delve into getitng my hotrod tuned up i think.. dont get me wrong i can get that thing twappin... its just misisng something.. i looked at the speaker and the magnet says FENDER LOUD SPEAKER for musical instruments or something...im pretty sure its the speaker they put in them i have to look into that..
HunSanity, call CJ at Weber immediately and tell him what you have described. "The POP". I understand its like trying to describe a problem to a car mechanic sometimes but he seems to know what we are actually referring too. The HRD is a boomy kinda amp anyway. It can be clean but is not the same as say a blackface sound. It's more of an mild tweed sound but with way more headroom. That is a 40 watt amp but they put a 50 watt Ceramic Eminence in them. When cranked I think it puts out more than 40 Watts and affects the sound. (There is a technical term for how this works that I cant recall). I would put in at least a 75 watt, you should get more clean at higher volumes and you can use your Silvers for the other stuff. The Weber Alinco Blue Dog is about $200 I think. Also you may be able to swap one of the 12AX7's for a 12AY7 which will give a slightly lower gain sound (Check this with a local tech first). CJ had some good tricks. I think Fender wants everything to overdrive sooner on these (HRD's) as people seem like that in these amps, "loud, chimey and punchy". For the cleaner jammy stuff I think a simple speaker swap may help a lot in what you describe. Again call CJ at Weber, he will tell you exactly what's what. Also have Walker show you some settings with this amp. He has it dialed in pretty well. He also has a hollowbody however so that affects how he sets it.
I remember being shocked when I found out Trey's Deluxe which is rated 22watts has a 50Watt Alinco Blue. I never really understood why the jump in Speaker Watts till now. (I still don't entirely but its starting to make sense) If you go too high the amp will be all headroom or sometimes an overall volume decrease and no breakup. There seems to be a correct match for every situation.
All this is assuming the POP you speak of is not a amp problem but more of a overall characteristic with this amp. If you turn the amp down a bit does it sound better (no pop)? If yes than there are other things to consider possibly. What happens when you play lighter instead of really digging in? That amp is pretty touch sensitive as well.
I am starting to think that when you say "POP" you mean "Bark". If you have a compressor experiment with that too. But take out everything else in the chain and just get the sound right. Forget the other crap. Dial in your perfect clean and build on that.
Also, read this article about halfway down when Trey talks about amp volume. http://www.phisharchive.com/articles/2003/guitarjuly.html
Always build on your amps basic clean sound. I have found (IMO) you cant fail if you just add to it or push it a bit (everything in moderation). That may very well mean that you don't turn it up past 5 and lighten your attack.
all i know is this bark or pop should be referred to as "suck" .. haha
i actually lucked out and met a dude in my are that does botique work.. and has worked on a ton of hor rods. so in my convo he got to know me and my views and likes, and he is all over it. so he is going to do some work and mod me up and knows what i need. he actually is down ph and all and said he is very farmiliar with the weber family and knows hard truckers stuff etc.. pretty crazy as far as the timing. next thing i know ill prob find out he is on this board he almost seems liek he would def have heard of this site at least..so im gonna go hang wiht him soon and he is going to hook it up. then with you guys and walkers advice im goinna put in a new speaker. Since my hotrod is unplugged righth now and just sitting i took out the tubes and they def are shot (i had GT rated at 4) as when i installed them i wanted low cruch so that def is an issue with needing new tubes to begin with i bet .. and call me a nub, but i was shock to see how easy the speaker is hooked up.. holy crap it just plugs in like a regular guitar cable. crazy i was expecting stuff ot be all sottered. i never even really looked back there until recently. so that said the hot rod is going to get a face lift and ill let you know how it goes..
started workign on Mr Magic last night for my new band sitch and who thats a sick tune to jam.. B Major scales and a lot of sax solo so me and the sax player are going to go back and forth..great funky jazz style so i cant wait to ge tthis amp rocking..
Hey tube lovers, my DRRI that is on loan to a friend has a metalicy rattle sound, almost a buzz, sounds like a cricket, but here is the thing it only rattles when you hit a G note! Bad tube?
It could just be the tube rattling in a loose socket perhaps..or maybe those metal coves that go over the preamp tubes... or a bad tube as you say.
HunSanity check this out. http://cgi.ebay.com/Fender-Hot-Rod-Deluxe-Supreme-Mod-Kit_W0QQitemZ180472598202QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a05014eba (http://cgi.ebay.com/Fender-Hot-Rod-Deluxe-Supreme-Mod-Kit_W0QQitemZ180472598202QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a05014eba)
I saw this and thought about your amp
I just wanted to share my appreciation for the wealth of knowledge above. It's funny how certain topics mean more to me at different stages in my rig development. I've read this post a while ago, but today I focus on certain parts of it because I'm studying speakers.
I'm going to see if a 12" Blue Dog Alnico 30 Watt will fit into a Blues Jr. I may contactl CJ at Weber.
Happy,
There is a site which lists the speakers that fit into the Blues Jr. as well as what wont. I think its Billm's site. Anywhoo he specifically mentions that a 12" Blue Dog Alnico will not fit or "sometimes" just barely fit.
Just sayin... Possibly explore your options. Maybe the Celestion V30? Same price as the Blue Dog and pretty dam good.
Quote from: raisingfreen on December 16, 2010, 04:02:46 PM
Happy,
There is a site which lists the speakers that fit into the Blues Jr. as well as what wont. I think its Billm's site. Anywhoo he specifically mentions that a 12" Blue Dog Alnico will not fit or "sometimes" just barely fit.
Just sayin... Possibly explore your options. Maybe the Celestion V30? Same price as the Blue Dog and pretty dam good.
Roger that my good man. Yep I checked that site, but missed the fine print apparently. I'll just have to get out my crow bar then won't I?! :D
Yeah that Celestion V30 sounds bad ass so I will be golden regardless. I can't wait to get this ball rolling. After Santa delivers, i'll get you all some pics and/or videos. This is a big move for an small time player like myself.