are you in the process of memorizing your major scales? if so, i finally got into trying to pick out the bathtub Gin solo.. and as i did i discovered that this is an exceptional tune to just practice your scales.. so just making a recommendation to get with the embassador, play in the hallway if you like...perhaps sing to the troubadours...the song is what it is as far as the chords.. but im more so taking the jam side of it in the key of F whan you play the Major scales (yes mixolydian is one of them).. and a little bit of D (key) Pentatonic...major is where its at though..up and down the neck all day..
so get down that little diddy that starts off the jam..its not too bad.. if you know your major you will find the notes..
to me, knowing what Pentatonic key jives with which major key is key to overall jamming...on top of just getitng all the modes down which is a mouthful in itself...although a lot of jams like this the pentatonic really doesnt apply.. but you can make it if you like..
Just throwing it out there for anyone who is trying to focus on learning the scales. i know early on im my learing (and i still AM learning) it was helpful to get tips like this so im just returning the favor so hopefully someone gets something out of this poist.....instead if just going through the five modes by yourself. put this song on and make it more fun in that specific key. of course other tunes work for diff keys, but this one is particular good i feel as you can do whatever in the jam and the song should be etched in your brain by now, right?
and if you already got this stuff down like the back of your hand then good job.. im still finding it very helpful to stay on top of things outside of the songs i have been needing to learn lately..
Hm, I thought it was in C?
ill have to mess with it tonight to double check...but i found the main phrase to sound good if you played the notes that are within the FIRST mode of major scalestarting on the 13th fret (key of F).. so your middle finger would start on the root note of F.. that said you can go 3 frets down from there and play the pentatonic which would be D pent..
so i stayed in that key during the jam. yes the first chord of the tun is a variation of a C chord....but i found this to sound right. i cant lie this is a recent jam im getting into trying to play (the solo jam part that is) so maybe the version i was listening to he was in a diff key? i dont know. let me double check tonight so i dont sound like a moron but it sounded right on up and down the neck...
god forbid i wasnt in this hell hole called work right now id go grab my gyter.
As far as I can rememer the jam section for Gin is in C Mixolydian which is effectively all the same notes as in a F major scale. It's over a C7 Gmin7 chord progression which are the V and II of F
Quote from: jadirusso on February 24, 2010, 02:23:25 PM
As far as I can rememer the jam section for Gin is in C Mixolydian which is effectively all the same notes as in a F major scale. It's over a C7 Gmin7 chord progression which are the V and II of F
yes its def over c7 and gm7.. so i guess you can pick the notes out of the 5th mode in C (mixolydian) .. ill try that tonight
or you can find the notes within f major as well.. pretty awesome...
and that would make sense then as how i stumbled on it to begin with as i was doing the Major Scale practice in F (not trying to learn the song origionally) and i just so happened to pluck a few notes that sounded gin'ish.. so i went from there and it all just sounded right...
and just so we are all on the same page, when one referrs to "Mixolydian" one is merely referring to ONE of the 5 modes of the major scale in that respective key. and im sure a lot that read this know this but i read so many people on the net confusing and using the term mixolydian sort of incorrectly (not saying you just meaning in general)
its so interesting to me how so many different keys and notes within diff keys can all relate. guitar is such a joy i tell ya...
Well Mixolydian is a Major scale with a flat 7..so C mixolydian is like C major except it has a Bb
That grouping of notes C D E F G A Bb is basically an F major scale (but you start on the C )
okay guys .... for shits and giggles i went back over this and there is no question that this is in F major. the diddy he plays down the neck from where i origionally was in the first mode. he playes that in F around the 7th ish fret...so its one of the modes ill get the name soon.. Dorian or something .. its prob the second mode...then the jam is all over... so anyway, i really really dont see how C major applies in any way shape or form. so just a heads up as i have seen a lot out there.. ie comments on youtube etc claiming this is "C mix" which again to refer to trey playing "mixlydian" is like saying Arnold Schwartzanagger ONLY killed ONE guy in ALL of his action movies. trey plays ALL modes in very unique ways...he is so in depth with his phrasings its "other worldly"
It is C Mixolydian because the tonal center of the C7 is a C and not an F.. but yes you are correct the notes of an F Major are the same notes as in the C Mixolydian scale..
From Wikipedia:
This modern scale has the same series of tones and semitones as the major scale, except the fifth (dominant) note is taken as the tonic or starting (beginning) pitch of the scale. It may also be considered a major scale with the leading tone moved down by a semitone.[5]
The order of tones and semitones in a Mixolydian scale is TTSTTST (T = tone; S = semitone), while the major scale is TTSTTTS. The key signature varies accordingly (it will be the same as that of the major key a fifth below).[5]
Some examples:
Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Musical scale
The G Mixolydian mode (Based on C major - on a piano it is all the white keys from one G to the next. GABCDEFG)[5]
The C Mixolydian mode (Based on F major. CDEFGAB♭C)[5]
yeah from a theory standpoint thats very interesting... but last night i tried the Mixolydian mode in C and had to play notes outside of the scale to hit all the notes in the main riff. the ber ner ner ner nernt nernt part...however ALL of those notes are just simply in F.. i guess my Q is if they are the same notes, then why do i have to play notes outside the C mix scale to pick up all these notes? and if that is the case then why bother calling it C? C mix just simply does not flow from where i am at this point in the game..
so this is why im scrathcing my head as to why people go with saying its C mix (which again, is only ONE mode) vs just cutting to the chase and playing and calling it F major...
isnt it like driving around the block four times to get home instead of just parking the first time you pass your house? or whatever.
just asking these questions as i am trying to learn everthing possible, not trying to be a pain..
Since the notes in C Mixo are the same as the notes in F major I'm not sure how the notes in F major work but the notes in C Mixo don't..The chord progression does change for the second half of that phrase to F Eb and Eb is not in either F major (C mixo) so the second half of that phrase is a touch different.
The main reason tho that people say C Mixo is because the root of the C7 is C and not an F.. It's all about which notes are emphsized
I'll admit while I understand this stuff I'm not the best teacher..
Hun, the solo part you are refering to may actually contain some different notes than the C Mixolydian (I don't have my guitar handy), but when they actually start jamming, after that part, I'm certain it's the C Mixolydian. The reason people are saying that playing the C mixolydian instead of the F major is because you have to return to a different note, hence mixolydian mode, to give your scale a certain "flavor." You can play the F major notes but you would have to emphasize different notes in the scale other than the root, F, to make it work... I know what you're saying though. I personally use C Mixolydian and throw in some C Pentatonic notes for added tension occasionally. Try this approach as well.
Yeah GonePhishing is saying the same thing I'm trying to say so if he makes more sense then me that's good..
Check this out http://highcountryguitar.com/ (http://highcountryguitar.com/)
And go to the Modes Workshop section. It's written by the guitarist from Phix. He covers it pretty well and uses bands we listen to haha. I haven't had that much formal trainig so this helped me understand it better. Use the loops he includes, to try some of the modes out when your learning them.
Quote from: GonePhishing46 on February 25, 2010, 11:48:42 AM
Hun, the solo part you are refering to may actually contain some different notes than the C Mixolydian (I don't have my guitar handy), but when they actually start jamming, after that part, I'm certain it's the C Mixolydian. The reason people are saying that playing the C mixolydian instead of the F major is because you have to return to a different note, hence mixolydian mode, to give your scale a certain "flavor." You can play the F major notes but you would have to emphasize different notes in the scale other than the root, F, to make it work... I know what you're saying though. I personally use C Mixolydian and throw in some C Pentatonic notes for added tension occasionally. Try this approach as well.
where i still think there is a little confusion on my end, and you guys seem to know your thery a lil better then me, so forgive me.. but agian where i am still a lil stuck is why people emphasize so much that it is in MIXO.... the jam part i mean..., saying the Jam is in C Mix (or ANY mix) for that matter suggest that you stay on the same part of the fret board the whole time. and if anyone watches trey fingers its clearly obv that he doesnt ONLY play mixo... in fact he hardly uses his pinky when he solo's.. he slides his index and ring ringer up vs using the pinky) agian, this isnt the case as you are going up and down the neck to give your phrasing diff character.. unless i learned a diff way or something. but they way i was taught, mixo is merely one mode (the 5th mode to be exact) of the major scale. so why use the term MIXO when you describe a key? so maybe you guy are referring to something else. oh well no need to rack your brain trying to explain agina im not trying to be a pain, all im saying is that ALL modes of the Magor scale in the key of F..
now where i think i DO follow you is when you say the second part of the diddy (which to be honest i have not gotten to yet, i skip right to the jam for now for scale practice..its only been a day or two) has the c mix notes. maybe once i tackle THAT i will follow you more.
but for now im calling it the key of F despite the fact the chord progression is (C7 Gm7).. just because those are the chords doesnt necessarily mean that it identifies the KEy of the jam, right? that was just a thinking out loud Q, no need to answer..
i just feel that when people referr to trey or whatever playing in MIXO all the time are not giving enough credit the big picture...
Quote from: GonePhishing46 on February 25, 2010, 12:10:01 PM
Check this out http://highcountryguitar.com/ (http://highcountryguitar.com/)
And go to the Modes Workshop section. It's written by the guitarist from Phix. He covers it pretty well and uses bands we listen to haha. I haven't had that much formal trainig so this helped me understand it better. Use the loops he includes, to try some of the modes out when your learning them.
cool thanks i will check that out. appreciate the thought!!
"""You can play the F major notes but you would have to emphasize different notes in the scale other than the root, F, to make it work...""""
EXACTLY!!!
that is what i am doing. dancing around in that scale and emphasizing different notes outside of the root (obv) to build drama and character similar to many ways i have heard trey play it... a hodge podge if you will.
which brings me back to my origional suggestion to use THIS song to practice your F maj scales and get fancy with them..
Quote
saying the Jam is in C Mix (or ANY mix) for that matter suggest that you stay on the same part of the fret board the whole time. and if anyone watches trey fingers its clearly obv that he doesnt ONLY play mixo...
Mixo doesn't mean that you have to play it in exactly the same position.. you are misunderstanding the function of a mode..
Just because it's C Mixo doesn't mean you have to stay in one position on the guitar neck.. it's about which notes you emphasize.. If you play an F note a bunch over a C7 it isn't really going to sound that great.. the emphasis over a C7 is the flatted 7th (Bb)
Here's something I found that may help about modes which is using Dorian as an example, but Dorian is just another mode like Mixolydian:
For most musicians, the terms scale and mode are interchangeable. While there is a certain amount of truth to this perception, understanding the difference between a scale and a mode is essential.
A scale can be defined as a series of notes, arranged by order of pitch, between a root and the octave. Theoretically, any combination of notes between the root and octave could be considered a scale. On the more practical side, there are a finite number of note combinations that have gained acceptance in western music. Eastern music, on the other hand, tends to be more open-ended as far as the note combinations that are considered acceptable.
A mode can be thought of as a way of manipulating the notes of a scale in order to generate a greater variety of sounds.
Modes allow us to generate an interval structure that is different than that of the major scale and therefore, produce a unique sound quality.
Modes are derived by taking a scale and starting and stopping on a note within the scale other than the root note.
For example, if we take the C major scale (C D E F G A B C) and start and stop on the D note instead of the C note we get:
D E F G A B C D
We are still playing the notes of the C major scale, but starting and stopping on the D note makes it sound as though D is the root note. You may have to play the scale several times this way before you will begin to hear D as the tonal center. It's imperative that you do not play any wrong notes at this point, or the effect will be lost.
Now, once the tonal center is established as D, we arrive at a new scale sound. The scale no longer sounds like C major, because our ear is hearing resolution to D.
If we compare this new scale to D major, we find that it is different from that scale as well.
The notes of the D major scale are: D E F# G A B C# D
Our new scale contains F natural and C natural which are two very important tones in the scale. Altering the 3rd and 7th tone of the scale changes the sound dramatically.
This new scale is called D Dorian mode. D is the root note, Dorian is the classification for this new sound and mode means that we start and stop on a note other than the root of a parent scale.
Quote from: jadirusso on February 25, 2010, 12:42:32 PM
Quote
saying the Jam is in C Mix (or ANY mix) for that matter suggest that you stay on the same part of the fret board the whole time. and if anyone watches trey fingers its clearly obv that he doesnt ONLY play mixo...
Mixo doesn't mean that you have to play it in exactly the same position.. you are misunderstanding the function of a mode..
Just because it's C Mixo doesn't mean you have to stay in one position on the guitar neck.. it's about which notes you emphasize.. If you play an F note a bunch over a C7 it isn't really going to sound that great.. the emphasis over a C7 is the flatted 7th (Bb)
Here's something I found that may help about modes which is using Dorian as an example, but Dorian is just another mode like Mixolydian:
For most musicians, the terms scale and mode are interchangeable. While there is a certain amount of truth to this perception, understanding the difference between a scale and a mode is essential.
A scale can be defined as a series of notes, arranged by order of pitch, between a root and the octave. Theoretically, any combination of notes between the root and octave could be considered a scale. On the more practical side, there are a finite number of note combinations that have gained acceptance in western music. Eastern music, on the other hand, tends to be more open-ended as far as the note combinations that are considered acceptable.
A mode can be thought of as a way of manipulating the notes of a scale in order to generate a greater variety of sounds.
Modes allow us to generate an interval structure that is different than that of the major scale and therefore, produce a unique sound quality.
Modes are derived by taking a scale and starting and stopping on a note within the scale other than the root note.
For example, if we take the C major scale (C D E F G A B C) and start and stop on the D note instead of the C note we get:
D E F G A B C D
We are still playing the notes of the C major scale, but starting and stopping on the D note makes it sound as though D is the root note. You may have to play the scale several times this way before you will begin to hear D as the tonal center. It's imperative that you do not play any wrong notes at this point, or the effect will be lost.
Now, once the tonal center is established as D, we arrive at a new scale sound. The scale no longer sounds like C major, because our ear is hearing resolution to D.
If we compare this new scale to D major, we find that it is different from that scale as well.
The notes of the D major scale are: D E F# G A B C# D
Our new scale contains F natural and C natural which are two very important tones in the scale. Altering the 3rd and 7th tone of the scale changes the sound dramatically.
This new scale is called D Dorian mode. D is the root note, Dorian is the classification for this new sound and mode means that we start and stop on a note other than the root of a parent scale.
incredable... thanks agian dude its stuff like this that is helpine me learn.. and i appreciate you taking the time to break that down. and questioning it to begin with is what leads me to figure it out!! so thanks!! i am following you but for good measure will read that over ten times to help me fully pick up on it..i am going to continue to try to apply this...might take me some time as i was playing the C mix (that i am familiar with ) and it wasnt fitting.. but im going to keep at it and try to pick out the notes ...
I had sent most of this in a PM to Hun, but figured I'd post it here in the event it helps someone else. I do reserve the right to mention that I learned theory in an obtuse way, sometimes don't explain things "conventionally", and certianly don't pretend to know everything when it comes to the subject. I tend to think of what I do know as fractured and incomplete, but again, if any of this helps even 1 person, well then I figure it's time well spent:
In regards to your post that I've included above >>> you're not playing the Mixo mode in the Key of C = you're playing the Mixo mode in the Key of F. If you were to play the Mixo mode in the Key of C, you'd be playing G Mixolydian.
Check it:
The 7 modes of the major scale flow like this: major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished.
In the Key of F you have =
I = Ionian mode = F major (can also be an Fmaj7) = this is the "Doe" in the major scale
ii = Dorian mode = Gm (can also be a Gm7) = Rae
iii = Phrygian mode = Am (can also be a Gm7) = Me
IV = Lydian mode = Bb major (can also be a Bbmaj7) = Fa
V = Mixolydian mode = C major (can also be a C7, also known as a dominant 7) = So
vi = Aeolian mode = Dm (can also be a Dm7) = La
vii = Locrian mode = E diminished = Tee
And if we wrapped it around again, we'd have the eighth note, also known as the next octave, which is the same as the one (I) again = Doe.
The "major scale" that we referred to earlier...goes in increments of:
Whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step.
Whole =moving up 2 frets
Half = moving up 1 fret
Let's keep it simple and stay on the low E string and use that string only. If you start on F and go a whole step up, you'd be at Gm. Go another full step up, you're at Am. Then a half step up, Bb. Another full step up, you've got C. Another full step up, Dm. Another full step up, Edim. And another half step up? You guessed it....back to F.
Now, as you start to wrap your head around this, you'll realize this obviously isn't limited to 1 string – it's just sometimes easier to look at it that way so you can visualize the linear track going up the neck.
So...with Bathtub Gin. C7 and Gm7. Instantly we can assume (with relative certainty) that this section of the song flows in the Key of F, because we have a C chord with a dominant 7, which can only be found in the Key of F. And this is confirmed by the Gm7, which is the ii (2) in the key of F.
So...while yes, we are in the Key of F, we are not playing F major, aka F Ionian mode. We're playing C Mixolydian. All of the notes in the Key of F are available to you, but that's also the case for each mode in the Key of F – no matter what mode you are playing in, all the same 7 notes are available to you.
Let me give you another jam to think about this concept in. Timber Ho. It's in the Key of Ab, but it focuses on the Bbm, or Bb Dorian mode. It's a really fun mode to play in, and Trey utilizes this a lot in minor jams.
just saw your response i will read it today (at work so cant right now) but the jist of it is that i was on the money when i was referring to F (and that said mode (5th mode) in the key of F being mixo... ill read the more in depth coments in a lil but thanks for putting that togeather.
so my origional point was correct.. that this jam is in the KEY of F .. or that the key of F is a great key to use this tune as "jam practice"
as far as this quote below by you
"you're not playing the Mixo mode in the Key of C = you're playing the Mixo mode in the Key of F"
okay so if that is the case then you are "in the key of F" (like my first post was saying) so thats what i have been doing all along as far as me saying "hey i think F fits this" so when you were saying C mixo i was automatically trying to fit C Mixo (meaning the fifth mide of the C major scale) and it wasnt fititng. hence my confusion. but i NOW understand you are just referring to mixo differently and you are adding another level of knowelege which i can appreciate and strive for.... forgive my limited understanding on this. right now i am at a knowelege point of pretty much understanding the Key and tryign to leard ALL modes of that Key. not to mention how different modes (pent and major) fit togeather being in diff keys respectively... so if you say Gin is in the key of F then i am going to start trying to play all the modes in F as ALL the modes in F are simply "in the key of F", including the mixolydian mode...obviously..and not so much calling anytihing C (but thats my level right now)
so i guess the root of my confusion WAS.. if you areNT playing the mixo mode in the key of C, then why do so many refer to this tune being "C mixo".. as from what i understood, thats what that would mean (that you are playing the fifth mode in the key of C (mixo)..which doesnt fit...when i say A mixo, that means the 5th mode in the key of A, and so on...but that said i understand my knowelege has a limit right now but im coming along and im going to tackle this..
i think in geneal this whole topic as well as your way of explaining also sort of similar (concept wise) to how depending on the modes (major or pentatonic) if you were to be jamming in a certain key, there would actually be 2 keys that fit togeather. the one being the major key being one key, while the pentatonic would technically be in a DIFFERENT key.. but the two keys respectively (pent and major) would gel togeather becaus eof the notes within them. take the song Crossroads for eample being in the key of A PENTATONIC.. then the related major key that you would jam that tune to would be G MAjor...so the two would work togeather...and that said the FIRST mode of pentatonic A and the 2nd mode of the Major G are both right there on the same part of the fret board. so that would be 7 total modes you can play in A pent and 7 total modes in G major..and so on
Yeah Hun, C Mixo is not the 5th mode in the key of C (that's would actually be G mixo.. )
the modes are named for the note that they start with not the key that they are in.
Quote from: jadirusso on March 01, 2010, 09:26:04 AM
Yeah Hun, C Mixo is not the 5th mode in the key of C (that's would actually be G mixo.. )
the modes are named for the note that they start with not the key that they are in.
got it, thanks .. thats where i was not staying on the same page as the way i understood things was a lil different. but im picking up now on how you guys refer to it in a diff way...but technically the fifth mode in the key of C is the mixo mode..(or any key for that matter) nah mean?
pretty understandable confusion as the terminoligy is the same
Yes the fifth mode in any key is Mixo but you don't refer to it as what key it's in... I see how it's an easy thing to get mixed up in tho.
exactly. thats why i was sitting here wondering why when i see peeps on the net saying "its in c mixo".. that IMO is incorrect terminology while it might be technically right...
but im starting to pick up on this a lil better overall now.. thanks dude.
i didn't bother reading everyone else's response so maybe you already have had the difference between modes and scales explained to you....but how i always explain it to people who have no background in theory is that where the note feels like it is resolved determines what the tonic is and the rest of the notes determine the quality of the scale. you would not have a cadence to C...for example f major g minor to c if it wasn't a mixolydian mode (unless it was tonicizing c but wasn't a modulation or a tonic) . also there are 7 modes in a major scale but locrian, the mode built on the 7th scale degree does not get used often. you can think of your modes as major or minor scales with altered scale degrees or as scales built off certain degrees of the major scale. it is probably more useful for your ear to think of them as altered scales so you really understand the character of a mode. once you get past thinking them in the context of the major scale they become a lot of fun. fluffhead is g mixolydian....yem is a dorian or ii V jam. lydian is really dreamy. aeolian is just a natural minor scale and the phrygian mode sounds like some badass spanish or flamenco music. especially if you have a major 3rd and include the minor 3rd in phrygian to make it an 8 note scale. yeah its late and i'm probably rambling but the point is just realize the difference in sound or character in each mode so that you can really understand it and hear the difference rather than thinking of it as part of the major scale.
I think Asleepinthebox is trying to say what I was about to chime in and say.... which is that it can be helpful to separate the concepts of Key Signature from Tonal Center.
Key Signature is simply how many sharps or flats you are working with. In the case of either F Major or C Mixolydian you have one flat in the key signature. Either way you are playing the notes C D E F G A Bb or F G A Bb C D E.
Tonal Center is where the song resolves - the note that most feels like home.
A tonal center does not necessarily have to correspond to the key signature... i.e. in Bathtub the key signature is one flat but the song's tonal center is still C. (for the main part, anyway, it modulates sometimes like many Phish tunes)
In advanced theory including jazz, the Grateful Dead and Phish, composers will even base their harmony around one of the greek modes other than major or minor. One good example is I Know You Rider whose primary chords are D Major, C Major and G Major, and a tonal center of D. Clearly Jerry is not working with the D Major Scale since the note of C is not in it. But if you consider the D Mixolydian scale as the basis for your harmony, it fits perfectly, since it contains all three notes of the C major triad: D E F# G A B C