Strange Design Forums

Hey guys, I was wondering if I could have a little help. I consider myself an intermediate/advanced guitarist, and I think my lack of knowledge regarding arpeggios is holding me back. I can play lots of different genres, but right now (being a Phish phan at heart) I am really taking to the Trey Anastasio sound. I can jam pretty much all night on the mixolydian, dorian, and pentatonic licks, but I feel like that gets a little boring after awhile.

I know that Trey uses certain arpeggios to spice up/add tension/make a jam more interesting, but I can't tell which arpeggios specifically.

My question is, could someone please tell me the arpeggios that Trey likes to play (tabbed out?), in what context he plays them, and a good resource to go to if I need to know more?

I understand the basics of music theory but do not speak theory very fluently. If you guys could take that into account, that would be so great.

Thanks so much! Really appreciate it guys. Push on 'till the day!

(dont mind the poll, im still figuring out this forum page and the poll is one thing that escapes me. dont vote please. just reply)

Quote from: Danny41 on August 29, 2011, 09:29:37 AM
Hey guys, I was wondering if I could have a little help. I consider myself an intermediate/advanced guitarist, and I think my lack of knowledge regarding arpeggios is holding me back. I can play lots of different genres, but right now (being a Phish phan at heart) I am really taking to the Trey Anastasio sound. I can jam pretty much all night on the mixolydian, dorian, and pentatonic licks, but I feel like that gets a little boring after awhile.

I know that Trey uses certain arpeggios to spice up/add tension/make a jam more interesting, but I can't tell which arpeggios specifically.

My question is, could someone please tell me the arpeggios that Trey likes to play (tabbed out?), in what context he plays them, and a good resource to go to if I need to know more?

I understand the basics of music theory but do not speak theory very fluently. If you guys could take that into account, that would be so great.

Thanks so much! Really appreciate it guys. Push on 'till the day!

(dont mind the poll, im still figuring out this forum page and the poll is one thing that escapes me. dont vote please. just reply)

I'd be happy to help you. You may know all the stuff I am about to say, or it may be wrong - but here goes.

In terms of arpeggios that Trey uses, and what many jazz and jam musicians use; is to change a particular mood with the 3rd degree of a scale. For example, if you're playing in A major on a static (non changing) groove, the 3rd is C#, flat 3rd is C. The 3rd degree defines the chord, and to me is the most-important part of the scale besides the root note. The only difference between mixolydian and dorian jams is that 3rd degree; with the dorian mode have that minor 3rd to express the saddened mood similar to that of the Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian modes.

You can also shift moods by playing different modes but remaining in the same key, providing the musicians your playing with follow you.

I think this is called Type II jamming.

As far as applying them to trey, if you google "the art of trey" there's a blog where this fella describes this mood shift quite well in video. Chalkdust torture at Super ball IX, Down with Disease, as well as Gotta Jibbo0000000000ooo all do the mood switch. GJ does more of a mixolydian/ionian (major scale) switch to a pentatonic/blues scale shift during the jam. I have several examples I can send you if you're interested.

You could try jamming in the darker modes - Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian. I also do this exercise to adjust my ear to the shifting moods by playing through the modes in this order but remaining in the same key. This is the order as it appears to my ear, you may disagree.

Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, and then Locrian. I go back up in the opposite order.

Thanks for getting back to me, I really appreciate it!

I understand the second part of your message regarding the use of multiple scales to give a jam different flavors.

Regarding the first part of your message, you talk about taking advantage of the third degree of the scale. Could you elaborate on that?

How does that apply to arpeggios?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is: there are major, minor, sharps, flats, 3rds, 6ths, 13ths, and all sorts of different kinds of arpeggios. Are there any arpeggios that Trey uses quite often while jamming?

Thanks again!

Danny,

Trey takes bar chords and plays each note at a time either up or down.  Mind you there are all of the formations of the CAGED system being used.  If you listen to Slave to the Traffic Light for example, in the jam Trey is playing lightly the middle strings of those bar chords that are of the formation based on E.  He also uses the formation based on G but like I said the middle strings are very common in the early jam.  Later in the jam these arpeggios start to use the higher strings and he even selects the next formation up the neck, but still hitting the same notes of the chord.

So lets say he is playing Slave: A G D E.  That vamp is made up from the four chords which build up jam.  I usually play that first A based off the 5th fret formation which is the CAGED formation based on E, but just slid up to the 5th fret (root is A on 5th fret of E string).  I play that chord and it's individual notes like a Hendrix chord, griping the middle strings in a diagonal right?  Ok then go to G; slide down to the 3rd fret root.  Follow with the D now maybe playing the middle strings with your index finger on the fifth fret.  If your doing that, you just slide up the CAGED formation based on G and you slid it up to the 5th fret (your playing notes in a D chord).  Just play any notes of these chords but play the notes individually. Get comfortable with that then begin to add little extra notes outside the chord but still in the scale.  Like hammer on and off a 9th or a 11th or whatever sounds good.

Ok now you want to ascend up the neck and build that jam.  So now you can start to play that first A chord up into a new location.  Play it up where A is actually the CAGED formation based on C (root is on the A string) and slide that puppy all the way up to the 12th fret.  Use those middle strings again.  If you end up using the top 3 stings it feels more like a CAGED D chord up on the 9th fret right.  That's ok too.  Just noodle on those notes.  Get creative.  Skip a string then come back to the skipped string.

Your goal in life as a Trey jammer is to find every CAGED formation on the neck and practice going from one to another.  I reality the C and D are the same formation (basically) so that's one less to worry about.  Also the A and G are very much the same but they kind of point in different directions.  If you don't know what this CAGED thing is, Google it.

Anyway I hope that helps.  If you want me to make you a video I would.  Happy jams.

One trick that I see Trey using is alternate-picking his arpeggios. It looks like he is strumming gently (little movement), but really he is alternate-picking arpeggios. I just figured it out as I am beginning to pick up Free. Watching videos... I hear a single note line... descending arpeggio ... D-C-Em-D-G-D9 intro (top 3 strings only) and throughout the song with C-G-F-D9 and C-F-G-D9 played on strings 2-4. All the time  he is  "strumming " away with the groove, alt-picking the arpeggios. From what I can tell, this is how Trey does it (default approach). Anything else (rakes, all down/up pick, finger-pick) is done for a specific effect. The ability to pick a specific note in a chord is a technical skill that I need to developme.

Happy made a point that clicked for me.. the CAGED system. The ability to play the 5 chord forms in any position is so key to fluidity. I noticed that Jerry LOVED the C-form, now I am hearing that Trey does too. Its a tough form and realized that I can not get on w/ YEM because I have not mastered that form in the 13ths position. YEM starts as the C-Form in 13th position alt-picked for like 5 measures.. you asked for tabs.... Hows this? This still hurts. With A and E-forms covered, I have integrated some versions of the G and D forms in my play but the full C-form is challenging me for strength, endurance and targeting. I picked up the "Fretboard Logic" series... for me... worth every penny.


YEM exercise... (L=tied note)
E |-----------------10-13-10---------------------------|--10-13-10-------------------------10-13-10---------|
B |--------------11----------11-------------------11---|-----------11-------------------11----------11------|
G |-----------10----------------10-------------10------|--------------10-------------10----------------10---|
D |--------12----------------------12-------12---------|-----------------12-------12------------------------|
A |--13L13----------------------------13L13-----------|--------------------13L13---------------------------|
E |-------------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------|


--------------------10-13-10--------------------------|-----10-13-10-------------------------10-13---------|---------------|
-----------------11-----------11-----------------------|--11----------11-------------------11-----------------|---------------|
--------------10-----------------10--------------10---|-----------------10-------------10-----------10-10---|--10----------|
--12-------12---------------------------------12------|--------------------12-------12-----------------------|---------------|
-----13L13-------------------------13L13-13---------|-----------------------13L13--------------------------|---------------|
--------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------|---------------|

Yep that's a great one to practice. I enjoy raking or sweep picking this form (C) and also the minor form (Cm). That's a whole other beast. The beauty is once you get familiar with them, you start to get to knOw where the usable notes are in that scale while jamming.

I am always trying to get those fast pull off repetitive licks down like at the apex if Trey solos. You can see that they can be derived from arpeggios. It's hard to make yourself play slow because you want to show off but then you teach your muscles incorrectly if you don't nail even beats.

Let's be real, playing fast accurately is bad ass. I work on this and have far to go. Cool part is it becomes natural and second nature if you put in the time. So many exercises; so little time.

Hey guys, thanks a bunch for all the juicy guitar info. Everyone, really, I appreciate it.

Manic, thanks for the YEM/Free exercises, you know I'll be playing those nonstop now.

Happy, I have actually stumbled upon and been playing a lot of those alternate chord formations (I now know that the CAGED system is the technical name) without really thinking about it like that, so it's great to see that there is theory behind all this. thanks for that!

Now, I understand the idea of using those arpeggios with chords just to give a chord progression a little spice. What I am wondering is, are those arpeggios applicable to jams/solos?

Using the Trey Anastasio sound, could I be soloing/jamming with a scale for a while, and then throw in an arpeggio every once in a while to make things constantly sound new and fresh? How often does Trey do that? Its a lot to ask, but if you could make a video outlining when Trey would use an arpeggio in a solo-situation, I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks so much!

"What I am wondering is, are those arpeggios applicable to jams/solos?"

Those arpeggios should really be the foundation of jams/solos!  Think of it this way.  The arpeggios consist of the R, 3, 5, and sometimes the 7th.  They are the notes that are played in the chords.  So when you want to play "in" you'll use lots of the arpeggiated notes.  You can also add pentatonic scale tones to add more color, but still sound in key.  Maj Pent = R, 2, 3, 5, 6.  Wanna use more notes?  Add the 4th and/or 7th (or b7th), now you'll be playing diatonic scales.  Keep in mind the minor arpeggio is R, b3, 5, and that your min Pent scale is R, b3, 4, 5, b7 (add the 2 and 6, or b6 if you want to play a Dorian or Aeolian mode).  At any point you can use any chromatic notes that are not in the diatonic scales to add even more tensions.  But you will want to resolve them back to the arpeggio notes so your lines still lead you back into the key, because after all, the arpeggio notes just outline the chords; and if you connect the chord changes with chord tones (arpeggios) as they change you then can sound the changes of the progression even without another melodic or harmonic instrument backing you up.

Wilson, That's some great information. I wanted to reply " Arpeggios inform Trey's solos" but what you said is far more practical. Excellent chunk of theory there.

As for  Danny's question of "...Could I be soloing/jamming with a scale for a while, and then throw in an arpeggio every once in a while to make things constantly sound new and fresh?" ... It can go both ways... Not only can one do what Danny mentioned, one can also play an arpeggiated chord progression and add a single note riffs here and there to take things to a new place. The trick to it all is to make it musical and tasteful. Either way, Wilson boils it down to the theoretical essence.

hey thanks so much for everything guys

Some good stuff here guys!  I have to ask though, what is the CAGED form?  I'm not familiar with this term.

As for arpeggios, one thing that you can do, (and there are almost limitless ways to practice this) is to just figure out what key you are in and find all of the triads in the scale.  For example, if you are in C major, play all seven triads up and down the neck.  There are a ton of ways to do this.  Here's an example tabbed out:

     C        Dm    Em      F           G           Am          Bdim       C
E|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
G|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
D|----2-5----3-7----5-9----7-10-----9-12-----10-12-----12-15-----14-17--|
A|-3-------5------7-------8--------10-------12---------14--------15----------|
e|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

There are tons of ways to practice this.  Try what I've tabbed out.  Then, try it with the root and third on the A string and only the 5th on the D.  Then, Root on the A, third on the D, Fifth on the G.  Maybe try all three on the same string.  Add the root to the top so that you are playing the arpeggio to the octave.  Go to the third an octave higher, etc.  There are so many ways to play arpeggios really.  Once you are good with triads, add the 7th.  Later, start extending the chord within the scale.  Play a C major arpeggio within the C major scale, two octaves so that you are playing the notes C-E-G-B-D-F-A-C.  Move up to the Dm and do the same. 

As for picking technique, there are NO shortcuts.  You have to start slow and gradually get faster.  If you try to learn too fast you'll never get it down clean.  A lot of this stuff comes from first learning scales all the way up and down the neck.  Once you do that, find the arpeggios within the scales.

Hope this helps!  (also, hope the TAB comes out right...not sure how the font on this board will set up)
-G

god....I have so much work to do. but whenever I have time to squeak in an hour of playing here and there...I just wanna jam...getting tired of noodeling around in scales tho....time to dig in.

Good stuff above^.  Practicing isn't always fun but it is always rewarding, a bitter sweet thing.  Sometimes I just jam and noodle for like a half hour and it's totally a sweet release but sometimes I feel guilty because I could have been practicing or learning something new.  When I do the latter, I always feel good about myself because I pushed my skills just a little bit that day.

On another tangent, much of Trey's music (the written music) can be a very useful way to learn the fundamentals, especially arpeggios.  It's almost like many of his songs are classical exercises that forced him to navigate all these passages and licks.  In jazz band we always started the day doing these 12 bar blues and the teacher made us play all the triads and arpeggios of each chord on each bar.  It got us familiar with those key anchor tones in each chord and how they moved the song along.  You could always count on those arpeggio notes to be your baseline.  Then as we learned to improvise, you started to throw in some of the other diatonic notes.  Then you learned some of the blues or penatonic notes...mmm more flavor.  Then you started throwing is some little chromatic notes....mmm more flavor. 

I was fortunate to have a teacher that actually spend an hour a week one-on-one with me so that I could learn to improvise.  We used to sit in a tiny room and he would either play the piano and i would solo or he would play the Jamie Abersold records.  If you don't know what the Jamie Abersold system is, you best be Googling that shit right now and take advantage.  Best way to practice improvising in my opinion.

Anybody else out there have any jazz band experience like this?  I'm telling you it was the number one learning experience that shaped my entire passion for improvising.  So thankful.  The learning, however, never ends.

Flavaham:

CAGED  is a method of understanding the guitar, based specifically on the pattern organization, of the standard tuning system. The name (CAGED) is derived from the 5 basic chord  forms (movable-shapes) that  frame the pattern organization.
Assume you want to make a "C" chord, Starting with the first shape, Use the C-Shape (normal open form). The next C-chord up the neck is the A- Form (Think A-style bar chord). The next C-chord up the neck is the G- Shape (Think open G-Chord). These are all movable shapes that utilize a barred-index finger as the nut. The next C-Chord up the neck is the E-shape (at the 8th fret) and the last.  The D-Form of the C-Chord is the final shape before the pattern repeats.  All these shapes lead into the next shape. They all tie together.
Thus the C-A-G-E-D name. It is a fantastic system that helps understand the guitar from the  pattern organization dictated by the tuning.  We all master the A and E- forms. C-G and D forms take more work and many use elements (partial) of the forms.
Its nt all about chords too. The system also addresses solo work in the patern organization.

Fretboard Logic is a 2-publication series that I have used and it goes into incredible depth on this topic.

Quote from: manicstarseed on September 13, 2011, 01:13:08 PM
Flavaham:

CAGED  is a method of understanding the guitar, based specifically on the pattern organization, of the standard tuning system. The name (CAGED) is derived from the 5 basic chord  forms (movable-shapes) that  frame the pattern organization.
Assume you want to make a "C" chord, Starting with the first shape, Use the C-Shape (normal open form). The next C-chord up the neck is the A- Form (Think A-style bar chord). The next C-chord up the neck is the G- Shape (Think open G-Chord). These are all movable shapes that utilize a barred-index finger as the nut. The next C-Chord up the neck is the E-shape (at the 8th fret) and the last.  The D-Form of the C-Chord is the final shape before the pattern repeats.  All these shapes lead into the next shape. They all tie together.
Thus the C-A-G-E-D name. It is a fantastic system that helps understand the guitar from the  pattern organization dictated by the tuning.  We all master the A and E- forms. C-G and D forms take more work and many use elements (partial) of the forms.
Its nt all about chords too. The system also addresses solo work in the patern organization.

Fretboard Logic is a 2-publication series that I have used and it goes into incredible depth on this topic.

Wow, how have I not seen that? (either written somewhere or stumbled upon...)  This reminds me a lot of how I use the pentatonic shapes for improvising.  Just know all five positions and know which three minor pentatonic scales can be used over the key you are in.  Example - Am/Cmaj, you can solo for days using minor pentatonic scales based on D, E and A. 

As for the "CAGED" system, I'm assuming this works for minor by simply using the minor forms.

Very cool stuff here!

Flavaham,

It sounds like you are on the right path with realizing that you can play the minor Pent based on Am, Dm, and Em when in the key of CMaj/Amin.  Just the same, you can use Cmaj, Fmaj, and Gmaj Pentatonic in the same key.  To talk about the CAGED system a little bit.  All you need to know is how to play the diatonic scales from each of the caged positions.  And if you know the 5 pentatonic scales already, those do in fact relate to the CAGED positions.  It sounds like you are thinking about them as the min Pent, so if you just use the relative maj of each Pentatonic scale and add in the 4th and 7th scale tone, you can easily figure out all of the Major scales based out of the CAGED pattern.  I suggest to get used to seeing it in Major scales, because then you can play off of them all modally too, that is once you can see the major scales on the fretboard and also identify all the various scale tones within them. 

Flav:

It does work with the Minor scales.
The F#m=A, Am=C Bm=D, Em=G C#m=E ...etc
The standard minor pentatonic (index root) we all cut our teeth on is really the  G-shape scale (1-4,1-3,1-3,1-3,1-4,1-4)  Major root is the pinky of the same shape.  Learning the scale in relation to the "parent" chord is the process. The patterns repeat.

The other day, I was playing and realized I can now pick a chord, play it (or fake it with a partial) in any position then play the pentatonic major scale,  associated with that chord and then re- target another shape of the same tone and continue do the same. I could not do this 2-3 weeks ago, last week BANG-quantum leap. I have been dabbling with it for a little over a year.
It really boils down to muscle memory and understanding the positional relationships.Once connections are made between fingers, mind and fretboard, doors are literally blown open

Playing in the 5 position... Am pentatonic and the chords shift to Dm. Based on the CAGED approach, I know that I can play an a C-form scale pattern(F major), still in 5th position and come out sounding right. Yes I already know that  you can say "shift to the Dm pentatonic, root on 5th string scale" and its all the same.  CAGED is just a systematic study approach that targets fretboard understanding, not music per se. Music comes later.
I will add that the (4) resulting, lead scale patterns are essential for navigating between positions.

Playing with CAGED-in-mind, I have "discovered" great things is that instantly added whole modes to my repertoire.

One day I was thinking... OK G mixolydian That's like C major  but from G to G... that's basically Am Pentatonic (Am=C), just hit those Cs Gs  and Fs (sharpened 7th) from time to time.... Instant access to every Mixo mode that exists for all scales.

In the end it is just a tool that can help guide the understanding. At some point we all need to let go and play where the music take us.

I gotta say, I'm actually more confused now.  I was thinking in terms of just knowing where to play each chord on the neck at first.  I didn't see this as a way to find scales.  Is there a full write up on this somewhere that starts basic and gets up to this point? Maybe a book or other publication?  I'm going to google it and see what I can find.

I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on how to improvise.  I use chord tones, full and pentatonic scales and can add passing tones and other notes for "flavor" all day long.  This whole "CAGED" thing is a brand new concept to me though and for now is not clicking. 

It can be a little confusing.
I use the Fretboard Logic series (2 bound books, 3 volumes and a DVD) for like $80. I didn't mean to make it confusing. It really does simplify the fretboard. Its really a tool to conceptualize the patterns. You will find that it can tie up some loose ends. Its more demystifying than my convoluted descriptions/examples make it out to be.

Well, I googled CAGED and found a site that had a bit of a write up on it.  I see that it throws you from position to position quite easily.  Here are some of my thoughts on it:

1. Great for major chords.
2. Makes you look at some "old" chords a little differently.
3. Can keep you alert when playing rhythm and/or backing a soloist.
4. Not quite as practical for minor chords.  The shapes are very awkward for C, G and D.
5. Still don't really know how this relates to scales.

Overall, I feel like there is a lot more for me to discover in this theory.  I opened up a song book that I had nearby and just decided to play every chord that I saw for one or two bars and moved them around with this theory in mind. I can say that it did seem to open up the fretboard even more for me.  I already feel like I see the fretboard well so this was encouraging.  I found myself going straight to comfortable "shapes" for minor a lot though as those shapes don't exist in my fingers yet.  It did give me some very diatonic improv, but I attribute that to the fact that I mainly just arpeggiated each form for the most part. 

I'm going to continue to dabble with this each time I grab my guitar for a while and see what I can see.  If you have any pointers for getting deeper into this I'd love to hear them!
Thanks!

Quote
1. Great for major chords.

Yes it is. All major chords are minor chords of one kind or another. The major chords/scales encompass all inversions and modes.  Its really not so much about "Major Chords" musically speaking ... Its about understanding the pattern organization of the fretboard based on how it relates to the repeating open chord shapes/forms of C A G E and D. It addresses navigation from the fundamental basis of the tuning system of the guitar and then simplifies it and make it practical.

Quote
2. Makes you look at some "old" chords a little differently.

Yes it certainly does. They are used in  decoding the fretboard. They become maps and shortcuts. Entry points into scales and  exit strategies out of them. Alternate voicings

Quote
3. Can keep you alert when playing rhythm and/or backing a soloist.

Dedicated practice of the concepts prepare you for fluid rhythm variation.

Quote
4. Not quite as practical for minor chords.  The shapes are very awkward for C, G and D.

Again, its not all about chords per se . It does eventually teach how to form any chord in any position, its about linking the scale shapes to the chords and see the order.. C A G E D.. up the fretboard. Walk there land there, slide there, but there it is.

Also, Minor is just a mode. You learn the fretboard relationships between the major and minor... Like the Am pent. is also C pent and F#m pent=A pent... It's the difference of scale definition based on the root chosen. For instance...for the "G-shape".... its the pinky (major) or index (minor) on the 6th string that defines the scale.

I agree that, these days, I am now thinking more in terms of major shapes and forms, rather than "minor ones"... however, I play as many minor keys as ever...  I just understand it from a "major perspective".. Am=C, simply Play C scale a-to-A. Done Any position. Any shape. It matches the the way I know the minor forms anyway.

Easy to hard...Personal order of difficulty ...E-A-C-(D-G)... I agree. D and G are  effing HARD, I can't move whole their forms. I still use the concepts for partial chords and arpeggios. My C shapes are coming along.

Quote
5. Still don't really know how this relates to scales.

The system, that I know, links all 5 scales you already know to the respective open chord shape. Play a chord anywhere on the neck and instantly know the scale shapes that work. It is  a methodology based in chord forms but takes it to linking them to scale shapes and then further, linking the scale shapes with lead patterns that extend 3 octaves. Then the series starts taking about music in the second book.


I do not mean to be an advertisement... "Fretboard Logic" series (2 bound books containing 3 volumes plus a DVD) It cost in the neighborhood of $80. Feels pricy yes but most guitarists would benefit somehow with the series. My older DVD was meh, but the new one is likely better.

Lately I've been working the "Bouncing Round the Room" type pull offs.  Also like in Rift too.  There are some sweet ones in Lizards too.  But let's talk about the Bouncing Round the Room ones for a second.  Go look up the tab if you are not familiar.  Basically we are talking about 4 notes in a box. 

Highest note
Pull off
Next lower string high note
Pulloff

Figure out a comfortable place to practice just one position and do it accurately.  It's really quite difficult to do in time at a rapid tempo.

FYI this is going to translate to an arpeggio with 1 diatonic friend note (maybe 2 friends).

Now take those two "higher notes" of (1st and 3rd note) and make them the second and fourth notes of you adjacent pattern.  You just moved up diatonically by about 2 or 3 notes.  No figure out the pattern that fits the scale.  Anyway find all 5 patterns and figure out how to connect them all in any given key.

If you can do this, you will sound like a bad ass i can assure you.  I'm just scratching the surface but it's paying off.

I have a little mp3 to share if anyone wants to here a sample.

I've said enough.... :P

I would disagree that the majority of your soloing should be arpeggio based as some have stated. Modal soloing is what jambands do 90% of the time. Am I wrong?

Quote from: dabomb on December 19, 2011, 07:54:58 PM
I would disagree that the majority of your soloing should be arpeggio based as some have stated. Modal soloing is what jambands do 90% of the time. Am I wrong?

I agree. I think we are just talking about how to tackle those arpeggios when you need to. Really sets the foundation so that you can effortlessly float into modal mode. :)

Quote from: Happyorange27 on December 19, 2011, 09:21:02 PM

Quote from: dabomb on December 19, 2011, 07:54:58 PM
I would disagree that the majority of your soloing should be arpeggio based as some have stated. Modal soloing is what jambands do 90% of the time. Am I wrong?

I agree. I think we are just talking about how to tackle those arpeggios when you need to. Really sets the foundation so that you can effortlessly float into modal mode. :)

Yes, I believe we are all kind of using the term "arpeggios" in the practice of identify chord tones (root, 3rds, 5ths, and sometimes 7ths).  However, even when playing modally, the basis of all minor modes is the tonic, b3, and 5th scale tones regardless of Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian modes (or b5 if using Locrian); and tonic, major 3rd, and 5th scale tones when using major modes (Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian). Obviously to really sound the modes you need to apply the tones that are characteristic to the specific modes, like the #11 in Lydian, b7 of Mixolydian, or maj 6th of Dorian.

Hey guys so I'm kind of in the same boat here. I have been playing for around 6 years but feel like I haven't improved at all in the past 3 years. I really want to start getting better to become a good improviser. I feel like when I solo a scale over a song, it sounds lame and bland and doesn't contain any rhythm.I also don't really play that fast, which I want to change. What would you guys suggest I practice and do to become a good lead guitar player who knows how to improvise? Should I memorize scales and arpeggios? I would love to be able to make every note sound good, but don't know how to do that. How do guitarists like Jerry and Trey make every single note they play when they're improvising sound good and right? Thanks guys!

Quote from: jgibb on January 13, 2012, 12:17:28 PM
Hey guys so I'm kind of in the same boat here. I have been playing for around 6 years but feel like I haven't improved at all in the past 3 years. I really want to start getting better to become a good improviser. I feel like when I solo a scale over a song, it sounds lame and bland and doesn't contain any rhythm.I also don't really play that fast, which I want to change. What would you guys suggest I practice and do to become a good lead guitar player who knows how to improvise? Should I memorize scales and arpeggios? I would love to be able to make every note sound good, but don't know how to do that. How do guitarists like Jerry and Trey make every single note they play when they're improvising sound good and right? Thanks guys!

Personally, I set up a practice schedule based on what my main deficiencies are and how i'd like to improve them.

For instance, my right hand is phunky so I use a metronome and practice modes, different minors and all the triads in each key. That takes about an hour and then afterwards I just work on different chord voicings, because I find myself going back to familiar chord shapes.

There's a famous Charlie Parker or Miles Davis quote that goes something like "Learn your instrument, and then forget everything and play."

I think I butchered it but the basic message I got was to learn the stuff so it's second-nature and you can rip it off at a gig without thinking and losing your place in the band.

thanks for the input, I guess I need to make a pretty strict practice routine to start seeing some improvements

Quote from: jgibb on January 15, 2012, 12:29:39 PM
thanks for the input, I guess I need to make a pretty strict practice routine to start seeing some improvements

Disciplined, focused practice, over time is what will develop you the quickest. It does not have to be daily repetition (slog) of identical exercises but decide what you will practice and for how long and stick to it.

For example , after warming up, you can spend half the time focusing on theory stuff and the other half learning songs.
One day you can focus on chords/progressions/alterations (theory and song) and another day scales/modes (theory and song).

The time you spend on each item depends on the time you have each day and as life has it ... it varies. If you have a half an hr, it doesn't make sense to warm up for 30 min, unless you decide that is what the practice will be that day, and with a metronome, that's valid too. You adjust the durations as required.

Happy Practicing!

Like Happy mentioned focus your practicing on overcoming your weaknesses and you will go far.

Really good info in here - I can relate to what Happy was talking about in Jazz practice as I played in a couple jazz bands and took lessons from a great jazz player in Pittsburgh. We would work through the CAGED system a lot - he would have chord progressions moving through CAGED up and down the neck that I would have to play for 10 minutes straight at the beginning of lessons, if I messed up, I started again. Makes your hand burn!

Someone mentioned some chords are tougher, particularly something like a G shape. I would suggest considering the slight variations in the shape, particularly dropping the 3 on the A string, which sometimes makes the chord too fat or muddy sounding anyway and use the 3 on the B string instead. Try playing every chord in the key within a 4-5 fret span using the various shapes, which is how a pianist learns to play - they don't shift the same shape, as it sounds clunky, they often keep their hand in the same region/register and use different voicings.

Considering this, you can get some really cool stuff happening using something like a C shape E chord, similar to a Cmin7 if you drop the root on the A string (I like to hammer on the 3 on the D string and the 1/R on the B string), then try adding in an A shape D chord, E shape A chord, G shape B chord. Keep in mind you don't need to use all 6 strings and you have a totally different way of thinking about a chord progression.

Once you get there, play through the C shape E Ionian mode and recognize the various arpeggios from the above chords I mentioned. Matching the CAGED chording to the CAGED scale system makes this practical IMO - do the same thing starting in different keys, chord shapes, matching the various scales and you become more mobile - I constantly have to remind myself to move from ones I am more comfortable with to other systems (ie, rather than starting with the E chord in the C shape, do the same exercise starting in the G, A, E and D shapes).

So now that the arpeggios from each chord match up with the scale, you can rest on chord tones from each chord during the song rather than only resting on chord tones from the key your in. I think this is the step, for me at least, where I start to view the 'key' differently - each chord becomes a key, so as (I think Manic mentioned) you can use different scales even in one key, you can expand that across each chord in a progression. This is kinda like Hendrix on Little Wing - each chord is treated like a Key and he mostly uses pentatonic scales over each one.

The other thing that I learned in playing jazz, but certainly never got great at, was viewing chunks of chords as various keys. In a more complex jazz tune, a good player can chunk sets if chords into ii V I's. IIRC the Paper Moon solo section is essentially I, [in between chord I will skip for this], ii9, V, ii9, V I7, [I usually toss a V in here and walk down], IV, V, I. So you can chunk the beginning in the Ionian, but when you get to the I7, the IV chord can be considered a I chord (read: key change), so the I7 is now a V. So this is basically changing from Ionian to Myxolydian for the turnaround.

This idea can be applied to Jam as a simple 'trick' for avoiding being over consonant. Consider playing an E shape minor pentatonic as consonant and slipping into an A shape minor pentatonic a 5th above (basically two frets up - from the original key, slide from a 4 to a 5 on the G string, the 5 is the 'root' of the A shape pentatonic). The A shape pentatonic doesn't have a root note from the actual key, so you never come to a complete cadence. 

Obviously you want to incorporate more colors / chromatic notes and more modes, but this helps me step out of the box I sometimes find myself in, particularly since we often learn rock/blues before we decide we need to get more interesting and dissonant.

You got an A on your essay ^.  ;D

Lol - I can be unintentionally long winded and Fridays are slow at work!

I had a few ideas and they seemed to integrate with each other, I hope I made sense, but I think it is something that helps me tie the harmonic and melodic aspects together.

I have subscribed to that kind of theory about a year ago that Heady was talking about.  I do not approach any of it as far as viewing the scales though, as it really helps to do this stuff by just concentrating on maj, min, dim, and aug triads and how they work across 2-string and 3-string sets.  And you MUST know your fretboard really well!  But it pays off as it becomes easy to always play a melodic line based off the chord tones of the harmony being played, as well as being able to impose a different triad over the chord being playing that allows you to play in the upper structure or extensions of the harmony and also play some altered tones for the desired dissonance and consonance that is tension and release.

This reminds me of a brief lecture I went to related to writing melodic lines. The instructor focused on Beatles melodies and suggested a theory for duplicating the process. While it is unlikely the Beatles thought this way, it is helpful for those who don't whistle a hook to a new top-5 every morning. It just involves writing out each note to the chord progression and connecting a note from the first chord to the second and so on with the least number of steps between the notes possible. A little off the topic of the thread, but seems related to the direction it took. I don't practice this, it seems quite contrived, but maybe I would write better melodies if I gave it some thought.

PS - along with playing scales diagonally, like across a few strings, I think learning how they fit together is really helpful - like I mentioned going from a minor pentatonic to one a fifth above could be an example. But even more so would be the same idea as the CAGED system - learning all the shapes of the scales (pentatonic included) up and down the neck, how one fits with the next, the practicing switching from one shape to the next on different strings - I found that pretty quickly lets you get from one end to the next.