Everyone wants Trey to be happy and healthy... but it seems now his sobriety may be changing the dynamics of the band. For one, I've noticed that he has been much sloppier than before. Every since the Divided Sky blunder he seems to be missing a note here or there, or even hitting notes clearly out of key. He's human like every other artist, but one thing about phish has been their dismissal of lyrics and emphasis on music. Now that Trey has started cutting corners on solos and going down a slippery slope with his precision one has to wonder....
Anyway, it may just be paranoia of another break up but it appears to me that something is missing in the band, and i think it stems with Trey not being what he used to be. Whether hes moving on from the music or he generally is a little sloppier what do you guys think? Have you noticed this too?
I made this post on phish.net:
The flubs dont matter as far as jamming, what musician hasnt made a mistake. Trey just wont let loose and sticks to the same patterns in most type 1 songs. Instead of listening or slowing down he has to be a rock star. There are 2 major riffs that he uses as a crutch over and over again. The first is that little 3 note pull-off. He plays it in the ear piercing high range, it kinda hurts to hear now. I just dont find it to be a good riff, its more of like a placeholder where Trey cant think of something else. The other is the blues type build up. Its in pretty much every Possum, Ocelot, Heres a few examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NvpU8tLvt0
around 4:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em3yi7GUCKA
3:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NMbuEBBUqg
4:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6dSzZ1HqB8
5:19
I havent heard every show from the NYE Run I did make it to 12/30. The only time I heard Trey listening to the other bandmembers was during that Piper. He wasnt all out soloing over the type 2 change, he was actually very patient and copied some Mike licks there. The opposite of this example is the Light->Golden Age transition. Another post on this subject:
This transition fail was Trey's fault all the way. Fish and Mike were staying together while Page kept wailing on the theremin. The Golden Age lick cuts straight through Page's theremin solo, no waiting for Page to finish up his thing. Trey stayed very quiet when the Light jam really got going. Then his ADD kicked in, and so begins the awkward change. The jam would have closed very well if Trey stayed patient like during Piper.
I don't agree with either of you on this. Sometimes he flubbs something or jumps the gun with an idea, but he has always been the leader of this band and when he gets an idea he's gonna run with it, the band knows that, and they will follow! If he didn't, half the stuff they did in the 90s probably wouldn't have happened. So why should that change now? I watched the stream of all 4 nights, and I think the first was by far the best, because he was most patient, and they locked in nicely in some jams and let them develop, and segues were tight. Funny because I read some very opposite opinions of my own in here recently and was astounded by the differences of opinion, but that's all they are, opinions. I'm no more right than you. But I saw 7 shows this summer: Hollywood, Tahoe, and Chitown shows just got better and better. And as far as what I heard in Chicago, the band was just as good as they've ever been. And Trey was a madman and no one was complaining then. Anyway, when I heard the way they played the first night. I was a little bummed that I wasn't there because it seemed like they picked up right where they left off, but the 29th didn't hit me as well, and the 30th was pretty sloppy, especially on Trey's part. NYE was pretty good, though I'll admit that I wasn't as tuned in that night being in party mode, instead of sitting on my couch and really listening actively to the music like I normally do.
Also, Trey has many standard licks that he's using all the time. Some may be better than others, but they are what they are. How many stock guitar licks do you use when you are taking a solo? I doubt that while Trey is playing them he is thinking, "Wow, I suck for using this shitty lick that I don't even like so much. Why do I do it every time we play this song?"
I'm just fortunate that the greatest band in the world is still playing in some capacity so I can go and have a great fucking time with my best friends and my favorite music. :D
I was at the 28th and it smoked.
Music should be all about fun and creativity! Phish has been playing for almost 30 years, I couldn't imagine having to remember all those crazy passages and lyrics. All things considering, we are lucky to still have Phish around and playing since they nearly called it quits for good a while back. They have always had their own sound and they are lucky to have such rabid and loyal fans. We should embrace them for all they are since there will inevitably come a day when they will retire for real. But hey I'm all for Trey and the rest of the band playing as long as they want to make music. And they shouldn't have to always do the same thing. That's the great thing about any great band is the freedom to come up with new ideas and take the music in different directions even if everyone doesn't always think it's the smartest move. They have come a long way since the first time I saw them back in the early 90's at the Georgia Theatre in Athens along with about 100 other people:)
Quote from: IamWILSON on January 05, 2012, 01:44:19 PM
How many stock guitar licks do you use when you are taking a solo?
EXACTLY!
Quote from: Walker done done on January 05, 2012, 02:18:41 PM
I'm just fortunate that the greatest band in the world is still playing in some capacity so I can go and have a great fucking time with my best friends and my favorite music. :D
EXACTLY!
You know I was thinking this morning on my drive in: What if someone from Phish died today? How sad would I be? How much more would I appreciate all the recent performances if I would have known they were the last. You know what folks, the number of remaining shows are finite. I hope there are 1000 more but you shouldn't assume that. Just appreciate the whole deal. I'm sorry if you don't like some of the trends.
You can appreciate something and still analyze it. I dont think Trey would advocate playing shit just to play it.... and Page has always been up front about the need for being the best they can. It just seems that this past year he (trey) has become distant from the band during jams, and is sloppier, and refrains to safety licks a lot more frequently. I say this because im afraid it will happen, not because i want it to.
And although I feel blessed to see another go around from the guys after the hiatus, i cant say they are at their peaks because thats just plainly wishful thinking. Shows from the late 90s were often flawless and full of passion and inspiration, both of which seeming to be waning now.
Déjà vu my friends.
Déjà vu
Not a kind one.....
I got into Phish after the Dead, around 1989 is. I did east coast summer tours until 91 and west coast shows until Jerry died. The Summer of '95 was painfully sad BEFORE Jerry died.
Jerry got death threats from "fans"... un-fricken believable.
Podiums/canopy collapsing and I believe fans died.
Ive been to the Meadowlands and understand the fear of yellow jackets.
What does this have to do with anything? Well I learned to approach Phish and all bands with a modicum of cynicism and respect. I look at the musicians as people not ....(fill-in-blank)...
I recognized that the Deadheads put too much on Jerry's solders and that's not cool and actually unhealthy for every one involved.
Here are some points I want to express...
1) Appreciate what we have. We all have our ups downs plateaus and foibles. We all have our moments of energy, weariness, virility, impotence, creativity and desolation. Trey is sharing his humanity and still learning how to do it in sobriety.
2) Sobriety WILL change the dynamics, but less from "creativity" standpoint and more from .. I'm so fricken tired... just a little pin-prick, that will get you through the show, now its time to go.... intoxication can totally put you in the right place as required, but its a mask to the other stuff of life for teh time "there"
3) Analysis is fine, I do it and enjoy it, but I find that analysis kills innocence and dampens my joy in the moment. I also find I analyze more when my joy is dampened, many times its me.
4) It comes to a point where is asked... does the love of the music-of-yesteryear exceed the simple concern for another's well being. I think its important to let it all be and organically develop. Things happen in cycles.
5) I think it is important to be in the moment, enjoy what the world offers you (say at any particular show) and that is what you can do for Phish and yourself. No attachments.
6) Trend speak is crazy talk. Trends change with out our input. Don't worry about what you can not change.
It saddens me to hear this kind of speak because I heard it before.
Some other points
1) They are getting older now... heading into the 50s soon. Energy decreases naturally with age.
2) All points made above.... to me indicate they have yet to embrace their age. Once they do, I'll bet they will make us cry.
3) We are older now, at least 13years since the late 90s
4) Have you (we) come to terms with our pacing with age? Ready to roll over yet? Then do it with what you got left
This all factors in.
Aren't we all just getting older.....
That was awesome Manic, thanks.
You know maybe if Trey was like all of the 27 club members (let's say 37 ish in this case) and he overdosed after 1999 at the height of a so called great era. Then we would all idolize him and his playing would be immortalized. He would be like Hendrix. Like Cobain. But guess what if those other dudes were still alive, don't you think they would have declined eventually or evolved or let you down? You have to accept this human being for all of his characteristics. We are all human. I think some people are expecting more than that of Trey.
Even Pete Townsend who wanted to die before he got old is certainly glad he didn't. Happy's point makes this sentiment richer because he pointed out death before old age = immortal and death from age = human. I think that's how it plays out in society.
I also feel the need to stand-up for Trey a little as I think that this kind of pressure probably makes him want to use...or bag Phish.
Al Schnier from Moe has this long descending run in the beginning of jams and a fast alternating note hammer-on thing over a pedal tone at the end of jams that are very noticeable and used sometimes two or three times per show. Chuck has the signature chuck-wail!Jimmy Herring re-uses tons of licks over and over. How many time have we all heard Jerry pull off a 4-3-2-1, 5-4-3-2, 6-5-4-3....kind of thing in Mixolydian?
I also feel the need to stand-up for Trey a little as I think that this kind of pressure probably makes him want to use...or bag Phish.
With all that said, props for having a god ear and catching all this. I'd much rather be at a show with a tough critic than a douchebag talking to his buddy on his cell phone about how great the nitrous is.
I agree with some of the nitpicky criticisms about Trey lately, but man... check out some 1995 Dead like Manicstarseed suggests - those shows were just plain sad, from beginning to end, if you were lucky you got Jerry to break through his shell and put some emotion into a ballad in the 2nd set, while mumbling through half the words. Phil was bored out of his mind, Bobby couldn't do it all by himself, and Vince existed.
The Phish shows we're getting now are crown fucking jewels compared to 1993-95 GD. They aren't shying away from the hardest stuff, and Mike and Page are both on fire. They're at maybe 80% of their peak depending on when you consider their peak... it's pretty damn good for their 28th year as a band.
Flubs more now? Apparently you missed 2.0 Phish?
Disclaimer: I don't really know what I am talking about -- ever.
But, with that said, one thing that has struck me over the years is that with the increase in the "quality" of live show recordings (quality being defined as closeness to the soundboard), the flubs, mistakes, the good, bad and the ugly all shine through clearly and loudly -- for better or for worse. As a result, I actually prefer live shows recorded with good audience mics, because they sound better and they replicate the experience of being at the show better (that, and I love the constant din of crowd noise in the background, which to me is like the calming pitter patter of rain drops on a dreary day).
I believe that some of the perceptions about this "growing rift" in Phish (at least insofar as the perception stems from musical mistakes and errors rather than energy or cohesion or some other factor) are simply a function of the fact that so many more people are all listening to soundboard recordings of shows where the mistakes are way more noticeable. Indeed, how many times have you gone to the show, left thinking it was the greatest show of all time, and then listened back to the soundboard and been a little disappointed?
That's a good point. Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote from: Collingslaw on January 06, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
Disclaimer: I don't really know what I am talking about -- ever.
But, with that said, one thing that has struck me over the years is that with the increase in the "quality" of live show recordings (quality being defined as closeness to the soundboard), the flubs, mistakes, the good, bad and the ugly all shine through clearly and loudly -- for better or for worse. As a result, I actually prefer live shows recorded with good audience mics, because they sound better and they replicate the experience of being at the show better (that, and I love the constant din of crowd noise in the background, which to me is like the calming pitter patter of rain drops on a dreary day).
I believe that some of the perceptions about this "growing rift" in Phish (at least insofar as the perception stems from musical mistakes and errors rather than energy or cohesion or some other factor) are simply a function of the fact that so many more people are all listening to soundboard recordings of shows where the mistakes are way more noticeable. Indeed, how many times have you gone to the show, left thinking it was the greatest show of all time, and then listened back to the soundboard and been a little disappointed?
Not flaming your post at all, but Fall run 2010 that I attended was great IMHO. I left Manchester thinking it was decent but after getting the board it was a different story, set I had some solid bustouts and the Alumni Blues (after Jimmy Page) was an ragingly funky dance-party. Set II was full of sweet jams and I was really glad to be there.
I think the quality of the soundboards affecting how people interpret shows can go either way, brings out the nuances in each member's playing much more than say listening to the whole band amidst the zaniness of the floor or from a nosebleed seat. The soundboard puts you right there and I think Phish's ability to give fans excellent sbds of their shows is a huge accomplishment in itself. I personally dig sbds much more than an aud because the quality is unsurpassable in most cases and people talking next to me next to jams at a show make me frustrated, so why should I waste valuable computer space with the same thing?
Back to the "Growing Rift" thing, In my personal and humble (probably incorrect) opinion - 1994-99 is gone, and I think my semi-pessimism towards Phish is just jealousy for all the Pholks who made it to NYE '95 or Oswego and saw the golden times (once again, opinion.) I still love the Phish but I focus more on listening to the older years where they did stuff like Makisupa->2001->DWD->NICU and hearing the magic of the transitions and all the fun they were having in the process, I just think they've lost their musical treasure map.
Tours and NYE must be incredibly fun for them still, but I think they have other items on their plates now (family and side projects) Trey has a orchestra tour in Jan and Feb and I'm sure he was thinking about that, too.
I feel like aside from special dates, dropping $60 on a face ticket is kind of hit-or-miss for me, granted i'll still go because Phish is one of my favorite bands out of musicianship and them being the only people who can do what they do. I'm just tired of hearing the same 4 songs off Joy, and Possum and every other show I go to in my area
Sorry if that sounded douchey at all. Just my .02
Who am I to say...
But I think the only thing I would add is that although I know Trey likes to take charge and steer the ship, I wish he could be a little more patient in the transitions and give the band space to explore new territory.
Light->Golden Age at MSG for example. I love the selection, I was there and I was stoked to hear Golden Age coming out of Light...but it was just a little abrupt. Fishman couldn't (or didn't want to) latch on to Treys groove and so it sounded butchered. Personally I would have liked to hang in Light a bit longer.
It seems like Trey hears something in his head and latches on to the idea. I miss the patient build ups and transitions. The beginning of Piper is another example.
I struggle with this with my own band as well. I know what song we are moving into and might feel a little nervous about making the transition so I jump right into it. I need to trust the guys a little more that we can take it from one song to the next slowly and let it happen in time rather then force it. Even an extra 30 seconds can seem like forever on stage, but it can make a huge difference.
Quote from: manicstarseed on January 05, 2012, 07:44:08 PM
I recognized that the Deadheads put too much on Jerry's solders and that's not cool and actually unhealthy for every one involved.
1) Appreciate what we have. We all have our ups downs plateaus and foibles. We all have our moments of energy, weariness, virility, impotence, creativity and desolation. Trey is sharing his humanity and still learning how to do it in sobriety.
2) Sobriety WILL change the dynamics, but less from "creativity" standpoint and more from .. I'm so fricken tired... just a little pin-prick, that will get you through the show, now its time to go.... intoxication can totally put you in the right place as required, but its a mask to the other stuff of life for teh time "there"
first off... i dig the floyd subtleties haha. And I agree it is cynical... I guess i came on here to bring it up and have a phan tell me I was wrong, cause in truth I obviously don't want to be right at all. I guess pointing flaws out, like with Jerry, can make it become a self fulfilling prophecy by creating a more hostile environment for the performer. I still think though, that if it so easy for even laymen to notice the tides changing they should be trying to enrich their jams.
Quote from: Uncle_Ebeneezer on January 08, 2012, 03:45:23 PM
first off... i dig the floyd subtleties haha. And I agree it is cynical... I guess i came on here to bring it up and have a phan tell me I was wrong, cause in truth I obviously don't want to be right at all. I guess pointing flaws out, like with Jerry, can make it become a self fulfilling prophecy by creating a more hostile environment for the performer. I still think though, that if it so easy for even laymen to notice the tides changing they should be trying to enrich their jams.
Thank you for playing.
now to business...
Huh?
Ding Ding Ding! you made my point. AND clearly you are no layman.
My stance ... is who are we to expect that they enrich their jams? Forgive me, I am attacking that concept, not you. The assertion that they should be trying to enrich their jams is simply offensive to me. To me, it is a righteous consumer mentality. This is art. If they feel like shit, the music should reflect it otherwise it is contrived and designed for what we think want to hear, not what the musicians need to say or be.
I guess its my approach to things these days. I try to accept what is offered as perfect, because in the moment it is as perfect as perfect can get. Anything else is my disappointment. I own my satisfaction. Its not like I don't perceive on and off nights or obvious flubs, I simply seek to reserve judgment.
Clearly no one is telling you your wrong, worse, we/most agree there have been some differences from the past glory we knew. I even sense the mellowing, but Ive seen the mellowing since '94.
Another thought.... Juggling is all about the drop, if there is no risk of dropping things, where's the magic in succeeding?
Thinking about this a little bit...
In the end the musicians need only to please themselves. If they do that and we dig it, then magic is made. If they have issues with the music not being the momentary best, then I simply hope they can work out those issues in time to find the joy we all want (and need) them to have for a stellar experience.
I think this ebbs and flows, if the relationships between the band/tour mates and phans are healthy, there is no reason to think that stellar shows are out of reach.
Quote from: manicstarseed on January 08, 2012, 05:51:41 PM
Quote from: Uncle_Ebeneezer on January 08, 2012, 03:45:23 PM
first off... i dig the floyd subtleties haha. And I agree it is cynical... I guess i came on here to bring it up and have a phan tell me I was wrong, cause in truth I obviously don't want to be right at all. I guess pointing flaws out, like with Jerry, can make it become a self fulfilling prophecy by creating a more hostile environment for the performer. I still think though, that if it so easy for even laymen to notice the tides changing they should be trying to enrich their jams.
Thank you for playing.
now to business...
Huh?
Ding Ding Ding! you made my point. AND clearly you are no layman.
My stance ... is who are we to expect that they enrich their jams? Forgive me, I am attacking that concept, not you. The assertion that they should be trying to enrich their jams is simply offensive to me. To me, it is a righteous consumer mentality. This is art. If they feel like shit, the music should reflect it otherwise it is contrived and designed for what we think want to hear, not what the musicians need to say or be.
Another thought.... Juggling is all about the drop, if there is no risk of dropping things, where's the magic in succeeding?
History. Phish's history of taking songs and playing them out for 10+ extra minutes while having crazy segments and transitions makes us want more. We have no say in whether Phish actually enriches their jam obviously. But it is an expectation of going to one of their shows. When I describe to outsiders why phans go to MSG for 4 nights in a row or follow them on tour for a couple months, their are 2 points. One is that they will never play all of their hits in one show, they are different every time. The other is that songs will be presented differently, jammed out. Its not ridiculous to say that at set at NYE run should be memorable based on recent shows. The last 2 runs, UIC and Dicks, were much more memorable than NYE. 4 months off is too much for Phish, especially if they arent practicing.
The biggest misconception in my opinion is the impact of flubs. 6.22.94 second set is one of the best ever even though I Am Hydrogen is seriously flubbed by Trey. Its the exploration and creativitiy that are what make this set amazing, not if everthing is precise. Theres nothing wrong with analyzing the band we love, it doesnt mean we want them to stop playing
As much as I hate to see it happen, much of what has been stated above I agree with. The jams are getting shorter, but I like to view it as just another phase in Phish's history. For example, 95=epic climaxes due to lots of tension; Late 97=minimalistic funk;03-04 trippy as shit, and really inconsistent, etc. etc. but now, in 2011 moving into 2012 the shows are more song oriented, more songs naturally means each one has to be shorter. As Manic said above, the band should feel free to make whatever music they want to not limited to what fans want. That's part of what makes being an artist in any form so great, the freedom of expression. You can express whatever you are feeling, and don't have to cater to what others want. The trick is to find the balance between making music you want to make and that people want to listen to. Either way, I'm just happy to be able to see them at all having missed all of the 90's and early 00's.
^^^ well said for a noob. ;) j/k