I've tried to find these doing an exhaustive google search, but no luck. Anyone have digital copies of these that they could mediafire to me?
Thanks.
Bump - trying to the "A System of Tonal Convergence."
Ok! Think I got the whole thing! Someone from TGP was kind enough to mail me a disc with the entire book on 2 PDF files. The scan ended up having some pages upside down or sideways, so you might have to print it out to read it easily. For the time being, I have a 3rd file in the folder that the link (below) brings you to, which is the one we have been using for this thread, but I might delete it if the other, two part, PDF is complete.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4S3f4zHrJF-bmN6bUl4QlRSVVdTa2cwcW94SzFiZw
This is the most of it I could find:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4S3f4zHrJF-c0hKVjExSDlSRmViSzZTWWFEVWJtZw (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4S3f4zHrJF-c0hKVjExSDlSRmViSzZTWWFEVWJtZw)
PS - I have been flipping through it on and off this morning at work and it is making sense in a text book way, but I haven't had a chance to try it out. If anyone has any opinions, reflections, practical usage examples ect, please share! [ie chord progressions that might be best to practice these in or worked for you]
I recently read Stiles' Stash Solo thread and this seems to be somewhat similar to when he suggests switching from Aeolian to Harmonic for the turnaround as these scales all have the tritone(s) to bring us back to tonic.
If anyone has the rest of the book, I would love to read it - I suspect Ted added stuff for resolving to minor, as well as more practical stuff.
More!
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/60018738/download?commit=Download+Now
&secret_password=
(http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/60018738/download?commit=Download+Now%3Cbr/%3E&secret_password=)
Thanks Happy - I saw that too, I think it is actually part of the link I posted.
Yeah ok sorry i'm bouncing off the walls at my new job. I get like 5 seconds here and there to check in ;D
I think you are really positively contributing a bunch to the forum by the way. Keep it up!
Thanks man - the regulars / people I have gotten to converse with here are great! So it means a lot that posting something like this is actually interesting and people feel it adds to the forum. I hope this thread fills with great stuff - many people here have offered insights and while I don't have the time I wish for on my guitar, I would like to fill the time I do have learning from others.
Hell, for inspiration, we could start a "Best Lesson Contest," each pitch in $5 for whoever comes up with the most helpful lesson every month or so - I am sure some of the stuff people have written out is pretty time consuming, so that might just be a fair trade to learn something (for me at least).
[^Half-Baked idea]
PS - I downloaded that link 3-4 times today myself hoping it was an additional section of the book, so no worries, I just figured I would mention it so others don't end up reading both before they realize it has the same info. It seems quite elusive, I checked a couple websites for a used one.
I think I am getting the complete book on CD, snail mailed to me.
Ill let you know if I get it
And yes Heady, thank you for your contraibutions.
I have read a lot of books and this is one of my favorites.
this is actually a radical concept and not used by many players past and present, although the ones who have learned this well are guys like miles davis, thelonius monk, charlie parker, which kind of makes it clear why trey would be so heavily rooted in this concept. The chromatic lydian concept is more strongly prevelant in beebop improv as opposed to jazz standards. (another reason Trey reguards this as his favorite material)
Really a great book
If you are interested in this sort of stuff you really should read "The Jazz Theory Book" if you havent so already. This book will definitly change your playing.
Manic - book on CD? Like Read by Ted Dunbar himself? That would be pretty wild! I suppose the other option is a sort of PDF version, which might be easier since there are so many images (though it would be cool to hear him singing the scales out note by note).
Stiles - I will put that on my to-read list... I think I might have a few weeks cut out for me with these scales ;). I think it makes sense that it was more of the bop-gang that was into this as the fundamental theory for something like Blue Note seems a bit more cut-and-dry...
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on March 13, 2012, 06:17:23 PM
Manic - book on CD? Like Read by Ted Dunbar himself? That would be pretty wild! I suppose the other option is a sort of PDF version, which might be easier since there are so many images (though it would be cool to hear him singing the scales out note by note).
........
Wouldn't that be sweet.
Nah, its likely the same thing as what you linked, except in 15+ megs of PDF.
heady
I would ready jazz thoery before I read a lydian concept book... it will make a whole lot more sense as to what the movement does to the sound of your playing
Jazz theory takes all the modes and breaks down how to use them within your playing, and over what chords they are allowed and why. That was the first true jazz book i read a long while back when I was going thorugh modal concepts and its still the one i return to the most.
just food for thought.
Check out this forum im pretty sure theres a link to the whole thing http://forum.phish.net/?thread=1325628548 The book is a little over my head at this point so i'll get back to it. I spend a lot more time over on .net then here
Stiles,
I kinda had that feeling from the start. I had to re-read what he wrote on the first couple scales before I understood what was going on - the part that threw me was that the root of most of the chords heard in the scale and the chord resolved to is often not in the scale, but now I understand how it still spells out the tension chords even if it doesn't have the root and how each of those notes, particularly the ones with the tritone, want to go back to the resolution chord. I have a 'textbook' understanding of how those scales work with tension and resolution chords now, but I am 50/50 on my ability to apply it. I will try my hand at it this weekend, I am kind excited to see if I can just jump in, but I will definitely check out the Jazz Theory book too (though I am kinda broke ;)).
MomaDan,
I got that PDF from the Mediafire link on that site, but I just double checked the other links and there isn't anything that has more stuff in it. The one guy said this was everything except the table of contents type stuff, but it stops at page 41 and jumps to 69 and 71 IIRC, so something seems to be missing (and I doubt the table of contents was between page 40 and 70 ;)). The scales in this section pertain to resolving to Fmaj7 and the final page talks about use with minors (again IIRC) so I figured there would be a section on resolving to minors, but no clue... Thanks though!
Hey Folks, I'm very interested in this book too. This guy over on phish.net has offered to send a scan of A System of Tonal Convergence if you PM him with your email. I can't register and PM him for some reason, if anyone with a phish.net account could PM him for me with my email, thomasmaclennan@gmail.com I would greatly appreciate it!
http://phish.net/user/angelhair
Quote from: tomasmaclennan on March 14, 2012, 01:06:17 PM
Hey Folks, I'm very interested in this book too. This guy over on phish.net has offered to send a scan of A System of Tonal Convergence if you PM him with your email. I can't register and PM him for some reason, if anyone with a phish.net account could PM him for me with my email, thomasmaclennan@gmail.com I would greatly appreciate it!
http://phish.net/user/angelhair
Done and done. Theres been a problem with trolls on .net recently, so their tightening what new users can do. That happened here also a little bit back if I remember correctly. Happens to every forum sadly.
Just played through all of the excerpt that was posted.. all makes sense tonally.. very interesting and cool stuff. playing around with the chord section at the end I sort of naturally ended up in the jam section (maybe so maybe not) part of stash. If anyone finds a full version of this please pass along.
Someone replied to Manic and I talking about it on TGP and offered to send the full version. I just PMed him, so I will post it if it comes through.
I still haven't gotten a chance to try it - I need to quit work and school honestly! But some of it is pretty accessible, the first blues scale is something everyone here has played before.
PS - I think this is the same person snail mailing it to Manic... he doesn't seem to mind sending me a copy and I will put it on google and share it, but I figured if he already sent it to you Manic, would you be able to post on google and save Joe the trouble/cost of mailing again?
Ok, I think I have the whole book now, there is a link to a google doc folder, 2nd post, first page.
Thanks heady. I have yet to see the CD in the mail...
hmm, I thought he sent it to you first... either way, the CD just had those two PDFs, so you have it now!
Much thanks! Between this and Sheets of Sound I should be set for life.
Sweet.. I just rotated all the upside down pages and now my PDF is easy to read on the computer.
Heady:
I just got it in the mail, yesterday, hours after I posted :)
Murphy is my bitch
Heady, thanks so much for putting these up! I rotated the pages & merged the 2 files here https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2lA8yUcT3jjTXl1aGYwZUhSWFdRMU9uYklmVkIxdw/edit
It's been really fun & eye opening working with these scales & arpeggiating the 'character chords' leading into the tonic 8)
Thanks for all the efforts above! I'm stoked.
Quote from: manicstarseed on March 25, 2012, 02:32:43 PM
Heady:
I just got it in the mail, yesterday, hours after I posted :)
Murphy is my bitch
Lol, bend him over.
Magilla - thanks for orienting the pages!
I feel bad I haven't been able to put any effort into furthering the discussion. I promise in a few weeks after finals I will jump back into it.
Hey no problem, it would be cool to get some discussion going to see how everyone is using it.
So far I've been spending a few days on each scale, really working to get the sounds to come out naturally in my playing. I've been working on applying it to I vi ii V I Major progressions (think Ya Mar to keep it in the Phish realm) & i VI iiø V i minor progressions (Stash!)
I'll start by playing the scale as written over the V chord, timing it so the tension is being resolved on the first beat of the chord it's leading into. This simple first step has been a good starting point & is a good foundation for coming up with interesting ways to give a sense of forward motion to your lines.
After that, I'll use the character chords listed for each scale as substitutions (usually played as arpeggios) in place of the V chord in the progressions. That has been really eye/ear opening.. You start to see how you can 'bombard/converge' on the tonic in so many different ways without even delving into the limitless rhythmic variations you can start messing around with.
Anyways that's how I've been using it so far, I've only been through the first few scales and diving in deep with them has been great. Def interested in hearing how others are approaching it too 8)
Finally getting time to practice these ;)
I have been working mostly in the minor key(s), sometimes over the Stash chords as Magilla mentioned, but I ended up just doing a drawn out i-V7 to give me more time to find phrasing in the Dunbar scales, which leads to some really cool results - I have read quotes of jazz players saying what happens over the V chord is 'where it's at,' in other words, that where the interesting stuff happens, and that was really what I was finding in practicing these when I drew out the chords; I was focused on phrasing over the V and more of a theme and variation / melody on the i. With the faster changes, I found myself only using the Dunbar scales for a mild tension and searching for the quickest release or resolution into a chord tone of the i. BIAB is awesome for this, I might get the newest version.
I am having the most trouble with the scales that are suggested to be unidirectional (ascending or descending) as they really sound better going in their implied direction, but I think that rule can be broken if certain notes are used together in a certain direction, probably usually half-steps. In other words, I found that sometimes I got good stuff out of ascending a descending scale if I jumped over a note to another note in the scale a half-step above, then descended to the lower note, and continued up the scale (sorry, that sounds confusing).
I also found that scales including the major 3 of F (or the i chord) sounded pretty clunky in minor, I suppose that's not surprising. Not sure if that is just how I am playing the scale or if those just really work best in a major key.
Finally, I find my tendency was to almost consider these various scales as alterations to the dorian mode that I was using over the i chord. This is not the best idea; while it makes it easier to learn and play quickly, it takes away from the 'essence' of that scale; it removes the focus on the implied chord(s) of the scale via removing focus on the arpeggio(s). I need to go back and practice these scales with their accompanied arpeggio(s) in mind to really draw out the 'out(side)ness' of the scale.
Maybe people have suggestions for my practice, struggles or findings with these scales, or maybe this is helpful for someone about to delve in!
Also - I found a used copy of another Dunbar book (ordered it used online, should be shipping currently). I have no idea how it fits in with this book, it about tonal interrelations across the neck (fretboard logic?), so it sounds more fundamental, but it would be interesting to hear it from his perspective, especially while trying to figure out the best ways to play these scales (some of which, admittedly, feel clunky under my fingers). I also talked to someone who is going to long-term loan me a copy of another one of his books where I believe he develops etudes using a jazz standard. Depending on the length of the books and if I can find a scanner, I will make PDFs to share with ya'll!
If anyone can find his ii-V Cadence book, I would love to read that as well - I emailed one person who said they might have access, but I don't feel too hopeful. There are 3 listed in libraries, but none in this corner of the earth, though I still requested an interlibrary loan via my Grad School library, but not feeling hopeful about that either.
Man you guys make me jealous! I've never been good at learning out of books. I can read music and everything, but I just have some sort of disconnect between taking what's on the page and applying it in a musical situation, and making it sound musical. Any tips from you guys from the dunbar book would be great. Can you recommend a certain page and scale from the book to start with that's an easy scale to get down? And maybe paraphrase what's written so I can better figure out how I should be using the scale. I do have a great understanding of music theory, site reading, and jazz theory even, so please don't think I'm slow.
Ok... I am just figuring it out too, but I can elaborate on my thoughts, but they could be wrong. I will write this in the key of F as Dunbar does.
It seems Dunbar compiled these scales by seeking scales with similar tritones that pull back to the I chord, and having notes just outside of the notes that make up the I chord - in Dunbar's examples he uses F as the I chord. All these scales are to be used over the V chord, or C7 and each scale implies a set of chords, in other words alternatives or replacements. Levine calls this bitonality in Jazz Theory - I think it extends further: you are considering the key (F), but as your playing changes, your considering the V chord a 'key', so also C7, but now your introducing replacements for C7 that still have to resolve back to a chord tone of the I chord (F, A or C). Thus three layers of tonality.
The notes just outside can be called side-stepping, literally describing stepping just to the side of chord tones of the key. This works because half-steps have the strongest pull back into chord tones. This is innate in the fact that V leads to I; while C resolves to itself (root of V to 5th of I), E resolves a half-step to F, G resolves a whole-step to A, Bb resolves a half-step to A. The E-Bb interval in the C7 chord is the important tritone Dunbar speaks of which contains the half-steps back to the I chord. The powerful scales that create tension and a strong release takes advantage of this as well as sounding outside. [To talk like Dunbar: in nature, two planets at a distance have a weak gravitational pull on each other, yet when one ventures too close, it is pulled into the other in an earth-shattering convergence].
Considering a basic major I V progression, you can play a plethora of scales over the whole thing all in the key of the I chord (f) Ionian, Mixolydian, Lydian if your George Russell, Major Pentatonic (part of mixo), even the 5th mode of Pentatonic (minor, part of dorian, but I usually use the flat 3 as a leading tone to the natural 3 in a major key), blues [look at Russells LCC scale chart; find the scale/chord interval and all the alternatives work as well over that chord (other scales, ie aug, aux, dim with the same interval number)]... If you play changes, you could just move which ever one of those scales up a 5th when you get to the V chord. This might be common in a blues tune I7 IV7 V7 where you could play F mixo over I, Bb mixo over IV and C mixo over V. You could stem from this that maybe Dunbar said "what can we do that is more interesting over the V chord and really pull the listener back to I."
The easiest step to grasp from the paragraph above is Dunbar's 14th and 21st scales; they are in the key of C and familiar to most people who play blues/rock. Scale #14 nostalgic to Phrygian due to the Db (a b9th from C, the V chord), and scale #21 simply being the blues scale in C (exampled in the paragraph above, nothing new if you play changes).
Side note:
Now, other scales Dunbar suggests stray a bit further from familiarity with just playing changes, but they share notes that pull back to the I chord. However, we don't want to just think of these as alterations of a C7 scale or some of the flavor will be lost, so when considering the scales not directly from C7, I would pay attention to the list of chords implied by the scale that Dunbar gives us, because consciously acknowledging those notes (arpeggios) helps us to impart that flavor (outsideness) when using the scale. It is the same idea as effortfully emphasizing chord tones when practicing modes, so it doesn't just sound like Ionian. [I still have to begin tackling this step, so take it with a grain of salt].
Ok. Before more Dunbar scales, I want to throw out a few cool example licks I like, just to make the point (note, I wrote these out in Amin rather than F), play though the A minor Pentatonic first or over a recording in A minor to get the key in your head:
-----------5-8-7-4-5- G# pulls us back to A and resolves the phrase, as the 7th
--------6-------------- F wants to go a half step down to E, as a minor 6th
---4-7-----------------B wants to go a half step up to C, as the 9th
-6--------------------- G# wants to go up a half step up to A, as the 7th
------------------------
------------------------
---------------------
--------------5-6-5-
------4-5-7---------
-6-7----------------
---------------------This example is similar, but doesn't have as much tension since it hits chord tones of the I chord regularly (mini resolutions if you will), but it resolves to the 5th of the I chord rather than the root.
You can see the side-stepping and how those notes pull toward the chord tones.
Ok, back to Dunbar and back to the key of F (F, A, C chord tones). Some of the scales are actually the same, just in different keys (they all work as replacements of the C7). I think the best example of this are scales 7, 8, 9, and 22 in Db, E, Ab and Bb, respectively. They are all major #4 #5 scales. Before we even delve in, lets consider the notes at the root (the key) of these scale; Db resolves to C, E resolves to F, Ab resolves to A, Bb resolves to A. [I liked scale 9 the most out of these]
Lets look at other half-step resolutions (remember some scales have F, A and/or C and those resolve to themselves and you can use resolutions of larger intervals, but they are less powerful):
7: Db>C, Bb>A
8: E>F, F#>F, G#>A, Db>C
9: Ab>A, Bb>A, E>F
22: Bb>A, E>F, F#>F
So when learning these scales and practicing them, try to phrase so you can use these half-step intervals for resolutions back to I.
A few more bright words from Levine:
Play with some sack or you will suck - you can't be feeble or it won't sound right, so when it doesn't sound right at first, sack-up until its under your fingers.
Try extending the 'outside' scale beyond the V chord - you can lead into the V chord by starting whatever scale your working on while the I chord is still sounding.
Thanks Heady! I read up last night, but didn't really get a chance to play. But I basically just studied your first example. Which in explanation makes sense to me and is alot of stuff I do already. So I looked at scale #14. Pretty cool stuff, very simple to apply as well. As I was falling asleep I was thinking about it and picking keys in my head and picturing the fretboard and and finding all the notes for different keys. I had this cool moment where I realized that those 5 notes when played for C (the V chord, being root=C, b9=Db, 11th=F, 5th=G, and b7=Bb) all corresponded to a G blues scale (G, Bb, C, Db, D, F) minus the natural 5 (in relation to G tonic - the note D)! Today when I had a chance to try it out I realized it contains many resolutions that I'm already using when I use some altered scales in jazz, but my discovery of the G blues thing (minus the nat. 5) really makes an easy way to change the sounds of what I play over the dominant chord in a ii-V-I progression, as the addition of the major 3rd interval (by removal of the 5th) really adds a different sound to the scale. In essence, my own way to think of what I just explained above is to just play the blues scale (leaving out the natural 5th) starting on the 5th scale tone of C7 (G blues w/o using D) before resolving to a chord tone of F maj. Or don't even worry about that much thought, and just play a blues scale (again minus it's 5th) a whole step up of the key you're resolving to. It becomes really easy to play some bluesy licks (but avoid the 5th) over jazz changes or jam music that sound just a little "out." And really easy to execute as I'm sure we all know the blues scale really well. Further, it also reminds me of a couple other tricks that I use when improvising. Maybe some of you know this one already, or learned and forgotten about it, but I'm sure this will be some new stuff for some of you.
When playing over a Dom V chord or minor chord (especially/or more specifically a min II chord, or dorian mode). You can use a minor triad based off of the 5th scale tone of the chord you're playing on. So if you are playing over a Dmin7 or Ddom7 chord, you can use an A min triad (A, C, E) which are the 5th, b7, and 9th in relation to which D chord you were on. Very cool sound that makes it easy to avoid landing on the root and 3rd and hitting the upper structure of the chord and adding the 9th scale tone. For a good tune to practice this, check out Miles Davis's "So What." First just improvise using only A, C, and E, and after you're comfortable with it and have explored the different interval relationships you can create using just those 3 tones, play around with D Dorian, but incorporate the Amin triad as a landing point, or just pass through and end somewhere else. In a tune like "So What," I'd also recommend using B (the 13th) as another good landing point so you can really sound the Dorian mode.
Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.
I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian. EDIT - looked it up, scale 20.
So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on August 02, 2012, 08:58:08 AM
Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.
I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian.
So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.
I think D is the 11th
You guys are doing well by carrying the torch of Dunbar. Thanks for the complete details of you findings. This pentatonic scale shift sounds reasonably easy compared to some of the mind bending details. Can one of you fellas make a soundcloud sample or a YouTube video kind of walking us through this? Maybe play a looped vamp and describe the background chords and then talk about what you are playing? Yeah do that!
Quote from: fulltone1989 on August 02, 2012, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on August 02, 2012, 08:58:08 AM
Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.
I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian.
So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.
I think D is the 11th
D is the 11th in A, but we are talking about how an A arpeggio relates back to the key of D. Adding the 9th interval to an A chord would be a B note. B, in the key of D is a 13th. This goes back to what Levine calls Bitonality, that you are working in multiple keys at the same time and it can get really confusing. Now, A is the 5th interval in D, but many of Dunbar's scales replace A (or the 5th chord and/or scale) with something of another key, in which case you have something more like Tritonality; how does Dunbar's scale related back to the 5th interval chord/scale, and how does it relate back to the key of the song. At least thats how I think of it, although I suspect many people are only thinking about how the new scale/chord relates back to the key of the tune once they know it works over a V chord, you just need to know how it resolves to the I.
Quote from: Happyorange27 on August 02, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
You guys are doing well by carrying the torch of Dunbar. Thanks for the complete details of you findings. This pentatonic scale shift sounds reasonably easy compared to some of the mind bending details. Can one of you fellas make a soundcloud sample or a YouTube video kind of walking us through this? Maybe play a looped vamp and describe the background chords and then talk about what you are playing? Yeah do that!
Lol, maybe I will try to, but to be honest, I am not sounding unembarassingly good yet ;) I could possibly do a few of the easier ones though... I'll have to see if I can set up a track in BIAB and record (either in BIAB, not sure if you can, or export to Garageband), otherwise, I would have to make a tune in Garageband to show this.
PS - I think Russell proposes some easier ways to get outside colors in LCC (I posted it in another thread). It suggests a systematic approach to integrating various colors based on the chord interval. I am only on the first chapter, but it is introduced there.
Oooh I misunderstood what you were talking about! Thanks for the explanation.
I have the Dunbar book in my jam space ready to go through so maybe this is the kick I need to get going through it.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on August 02, 2012, 11:17:03 AM
Quote from: fulltone1989 on August 02, 2012, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on August 02, 2012, 08:58:08 AM
Sweet Wilson! Its awesome when you have a revelation that you already are doing what your trying to learn, lol. I figured it was more a semantic thing from Dunbar's system that made it seem 'different.' I found I sometimes do some of the stuff he discusses, but I am trying to learn his system from his perspective.
I had read a few threads on tricks to sound outside (a la Trey) and moving the pentatonic was one suggestion - as you mention, up a step from the key is one interval that works. IIRC one of Dunbar's scales of the Dorian of F Major (G Dorian), which is essentially the same idea as what your describing since the minor pentatonic is a subset of scale tones from dorian.
So What is probably a great song to practice over with the drawn out chords. I will have to try the Amin arpeggio (or Amin9 to add the 13th of D). I would also wonder if A79, especially over D7 or Dmaj would have more pull back to D; the C# is a half-step from D (rather than a b7), the G is a half-step from F#.
I think D is the 11th
D is the 11th in A, but we are talking about how an A arpeggio relates back to the key of D. Adding the 9th interval to an A chord would be a B note. B, in the key of D is a 13th. This goes back to what Levine calls Bitonality, that you are working in multiple keys at the same time and it can get really confusing. Now, A is the 5th interval in D, but many of Dunbar's scales replace A (or the 5th chord and/or scale) with something of another key, in which case you have something more like Tritonality; how does Dunbar's scale related back to the 5th interval chord/scale, and how does it relate back to the key of the song. At least thats how I think of it, although I suspect many people are only thinking about how the new scale/chord relates back to the key of the tune once they know it works over a V chord, you just need to know how it resolves to the I.
I just started reading LCC, I find it easier in some ways, worth looking at that and seeing what you want to start with.
Forgive me but what does LCC mean in that context
Lol, sorry, Lydian Chromatic Concept, written by George Russell, who IIRC was Dunbar's mentor. I just created a thread yesterday with the book and all the charts included.
The premise is that the Lydian mode ought to replace the Ionian mode for various reasons (later versions of the book contained controversial scientific arguments), but it contains a lot of helpful info that might be easier to start with compared to the stuff in this thread. I am on the first chapter/lesson of LCC about to start the second, but he includes the Lydian mode and 6 alternatives that can be used in its place to add colors, similar to Dunbar's collection of scales, but I think the way Russell systematizes it makes it easier to grasp.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on August 02, 2012, 08:22:49 PM
Lol, sorry, Lydian Chromatic Concept, written by George Russell, who IIRC was Dunbar's mentor. I just created a thread yesterday with the book and all the charts included.
The premise is that the Lydian mode ought to replace the Ionian mode for various reasons (later versions of the book contained controversial scientific arguments), but it contains a lot of helpful info that might be easier to start with compared to the stuff in this thread. I am on the first chapter/lesson of LCC about to start the second, but he includes the Lydian mode and 6 alternatives that can be used in its place to add colors, similar to Dunbar's collection of scales, but I think the way Russell systematizes it makes it easier to grasp.
I agree w/ you Heady Brah! LCC seems way easier to grasp. I remember starting to read it a while back and agree w/ his ideal about using the Lydian mode instead of the Major (ionian). The #11 clearly dictates the the tonic within the key your improvising in by not providing this false sense of a resolution when the 11 is played in unison to the tonic. Then you have no avoid note and create more tensions within your lines as well. I wish I can remember my discoveries I made from reading some of that book while I was playing with my phish cover band. It basically had to do with changing some chord tones within a scale when improvising in a minor key. I think first I'd change the b7 to nat 7, and then the 5 to b5. In a minor key the 11th doesn't get in the way. I remember doing some cool tension/release stuff with those ideas, but don't totally remember what I was doing to execute all this. I'll have to skim through that stuff again.
Heady, I wish we could play guitars together for about a month and I'd explain all the things I know and you could explain these books to me and we'd both come out playing the guitar and thinking too much for the next 6 months, but after that we'd both be alot better.
Where'd you find the thread Heady? I wanna check this book out.
Quote from: IamWILSON on August 03, 2012, 12:50:08 AM
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on August 02, 2012, 08:22:49 PM
Lol, sorry, Lydian Chromatic Concept, written by George Russell, who IIRC was Dunbar's mentor. I just created a thread yesterday with the book and all the charts included.
The premise is that the Lydian mode ought to replace the Ionian mode for various reasons (later versions of the book contained controversial scientific arguments), but it contains a lot of helpful info that might be easier to start with compared to the stuff in this thread. I am on the first chapter/lesson of LCC about to start the second, but he includes the Lydian mode and 6 alternatives that can be used in its place to add colors, similar to Dunbar's collection of scales, but I think the way Russell systematizes it makes it easier to grasp.
I agree w/ you Heady Brah! LCC seems way easier to grasp. I remember starting to read it a while back and agree w/ his ideal about using the Lydian mode instead of the Major (ionian). The #11 clearly dictates the the tonic within the key your improvising in by not providing this false sense of a resolution when the 11 is played in unison to the tonic. Then you have no avoid note and create more tensions within your lines as well. I wish I can remember my discoveries I made from reading some of that book while I was playing with my phish cover band. It basically had to do with changing some chord tones within a scale when improvising in a minor key. I think first I'd change the b7 to nat 7, and then the 5 to b5. In a minor key the 11th doesn't get in the way. I remember doing some cool tension/release stuff with those ideas, but don't totally remember what I was doing to execute all this. I'll have to skim through that stuff again.
Heady, I wish we could play guitars together for about a month and I'd explain all the things I know and you could explain these books to me and we'd both come out playing the guitar and thinking too much for the next 6 months, but after that we'd both be alot better.
Lol - yea man, I think your right, it definitely feels tougher working through this stuff with only my own perspective. And I can barely apply what I am starting to understand. I just like how Russell went all OCD charting everything out, making something that could be very complex much more accessible. Its hard to find anyone in my area who is at all interested in learning this stuff (and who has a foundation to start with).