First off - Ted Weber is an awesome guy! He sent me a 50 watt ceramic Blue Dog to test out and compare to my Eminence Red Fang and it just arrived earlier this week.
I finally got a chance to record this afternoon and I began with the Red Fang and tried to get a variety of sounds for the comparison. Then I plugged into the Blue Dog and went straight into recording the same tunes. The Blue Dog has been used, so it should be fully broken in, but this was also my first go-around with it, so I am really still getting use to it and looking forward to putting a few more hours on it in the next few days.
I used my custom guitar with Joe Barden's into my 1965 Fender Bassman (I set the amp as bright as possible and roll down my tone knob, gives me a ton of upper mids/presence). I used an MXL 2010 mic into Garageband.
The only effects used are listed in my signature except a small amount of software compression post-processing. The wet effects were all recorded effect only in stereo, so if y'all want, I can make another version 100% dry (though I kept the wet levels fairly low).
http://soundcloud.com/jweingarden/red-fang-vs-blue-dog
The clean tracks were recorded with my Retro-Sonic compressor on (which has quite a bit of attack on some tracks, sorry) - it is a pretty new pedal to me, so that is why it is on.
Clean Phish tunes have a TS9 Silver>Comp with my guitar volume rolled back a bit.
Overdriven Rhythm tracks are my amp's distortion, the one track with more picking has a compressor on to help those notes pop out, the other tracks (I believe they are all Hendrix tunes IIRC) are just guitar into amp.
The dirty leads are both TS9 Silvers>Comp>Fromel Shape.
All the tracks were recorded with single coils except the two lead tracks, it was the bridge humbucker. As far as the single coils settings, I switch between neck, neck-middle, middle, and middle-bridge.
The wet effects include stereo spread chorus on every track except Little Wing (which has Flange instead) from my Modfactor, 100% wet and a little reverb from my RV7. The lead tunes have a touch of delay from my Flashback with the Matt Beck echo toneprint.
Sweet! I liked A the most and it confirms what I predicted. I won't spoil it for everyone.
Lol - yea, I am still undecided. I also posted it on TGP and slowly getting responses. Its a tough comparison!
I figured this was a good forum for it as they are two great speaker options for getting the Trey tone.
First off... YOU GOT SUCH AN AMAZING RADIO VOICE!!!! You should totally be a radio dj!
Immediately liked A better. And I'm not gonna reveal which speaker it is, just so the others can do the blind test. I wasn't surprised when I heard the results. I just thought B was too bright sounding. As far as the leads, they both sounded almost identical and both obviously take o/d great and produce the same tone. Another thing I didn't like about B was it sounded very wet, when you were using alot of effects and not pushed to serious overdrive, which actually worked pretty well with the Hendrix stuff, but it just sounded too wet for my liking
I didn't listen to the whole thing, but listened to each the same parts of each A/B clip to make sure I hear the difference. Also, I really dislike hearing space and quick speaking between between the parts so it was easier for me to set it at the beginning of an example and click on the next knowing it will start in the same spot by looking at the soundwave forms. That way I hear the immediate change in tone. I recommend this if for others here, if you want to hear the immediate change in tone on an identical riff.
Man, when I started my long post, there were no replies yet! Once again beat out by the happyorange!
Quote from: IamWILSON on January 28, 2012, 06:09:49 PM
First off... YOU GOT SUCH AN AMAZING RADIO VOICE!!!! You should totally be a radio dj!
Immediately liked A better. And I'm not gonna reveal which speaker it is, just so the others can do the blind test. I wasn't surprised when I heard the results. I just thought B was too bright sounding. As far as the leads, they both sounded almost identical and both obviously take o/d great and produce the same tone. Another thing I didn't like about B was it sounded very wet, when you were using alot of effects and not pushed to serious overdrive, which actually worked pretty well with the Hendrix stuff, but it just sounded too wet for my liking
I didn't listen to the whole thing, but listened to each the same parts of each A/B clip to make sure I hear the difference. Also, I really dislike hearing space and quick speaking between between the parts so it was easier for me to set it at the beginning of an example and click on the next knowing it will start in the same spot by looking at the soundwave forms. That way I hear the immediate change in tone. I recommend this if for others here, if you want to hear the immediate change in tone on an identical riff.
Nice review - funny how both of you started with almost identical replies!
It is possible there is slightly more wet effect on B as the knobs on my interface are very sensitive, but I tried to make them even. I think a few of the B tracks sound a little louder, which could be a difference in speaker efficiency.
I can make a version with no wet effects as they are on separate tracks in Garageband - if you think it would be helpful, I can put a 100% dry version up in about 10 minutes time.
Funny - I thought A sounded brighter! Both certainly have some complexity in the upper mids, I found A to be more clear and bell like if that makes sense, B was a little more edgy or something, which is also interesting and I often like that with an overdriven amp, but A might be better in that respect for spanky Trey-Rhythm, something like Run Like An Antelope.
I also have been doing what you are doing, clicking back and forth between A&B of each example. I tried to keep the pause between examples short (cropping the end of each example, which I accidently cut off some delay trails on the lead examples), but I also wanted it to be easy for listeners to follow and make sure they knew which speaker they were listening too.
Also - I almost forgot - I would love to do the radio thing! I have been told that a couple times before, sometimes I goof around with my girlfriend using the movie-guy voice when we are in the bedroom- "Cumming soon!" Lol. The funny part is, people really don't seem to like when I sing, maybe I need to do a jam band version of the spoken word hip-hop thing.?.
Yeah, definitely do a complete dry recording for each! That will tell you how the speaker really is reacting to amp and guitar. But it is cool to hear the difference of how the speakers react to various effects, if only we could compare wet, with dry, and only one effect at a time, to really know how it is affected each time.
Also, I was just listening w/ tiny MacBook Pro speakers, when I have time later, I might give a little more listening w/ headphones on!
I will put up a completely dry version in a couple minutes then!
You are right though, it does seem there is a higher ratio of wet on the B speaker. I was going to go through and manually even out all the levels etc, but I was way too lazy.
http://soundcloud.com/jweingarden/red-fang-vs-blue-dog-dry
100% dry version, argh, it's hard to listen to yourself play 100% dry sometimes, now I can really hear how rough around the edges I am ;)... oh well, this is how it sounded to me when I was recording.
Quote from: IamWILSON on January 28, 2012, 06:10:27 PM
Man, when I started my long post, there were no replies yet! Once again beat out by the happyorange!
Ha!
Okay, so just listened to the dry recording along with headphones and had a different experience. Not sure which I like better now. I think B sounds better on Hendrix stuff and Knoffler stuff. I like A better on most the rest, basically 50/50 split. Both tones are good. What I don't like? After hearing that silver ts-9 so much, it really reminds me of the one thing I dislike about Trey's tone since he started using the AM silver.
Lol, your gonna get shunned from the forum! I really like the Silvers, but for stuff like the rendition of Dirt I played, I have trouble deciding which pickup settings I like. Sometimes I find the in-between settings not articulate enough, I think on this recording the neck pup isn't quite bright enough, but bridge is sometimes too thin. Occasionally I use the neck and bridge together, which makes for a decent blend. I am hoping to buy an Equator if I can sell my Les Paul, and maybe figure out which pup he uses for some of those tunes.
Whatever is that little extra something that is more apparent in the silver ts-9 (don't totally know how to describe it, maybe that rounder kinda quality?) just sounds too digital or non-organic compared to that same kinda tone he achieved back in the 90's. I
Quote from: IamWILSON on January 28, 2012, 09:26:17 PM
Whatever is that little extra something that is more apparent in the silver ts-9 (don't totally know how to describe it, maybe that rounder kinda quality?) just sounds too digital or non-organic compared to that same kinda tone he achieved back in the 90's. I
Wilson I think we share a brain. I'm agreeing with you all the way. I can only tolerate mine through my tube amp at reasonable gain levels. Play that pedal through anything solid state or a PA and you can toss it out the window. Daddy needs to try some new screamers. ;D
Lol, I have always been a fan of the silvers personally. I have considered trying a few other TS's, mostly OD9 Silver. I am interested in the VOP9 as well, but I think the voicing might not be right for Phish. It is interesting to hear you guys don't like it as much, I would be interested in hearing more about what you don't like with the Silvers and which TS you prefer.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 28, 2012, 11:00:31 PM
Lol, I have always been a fan of the silvers personally. I have considered trying a few other TS's, mostly OD9 Silver. I am interested in the VOP9 as well, but I think the voicing might not be right for Phish. It is interesting to hear you guys don't like it as much, I would be interested in hearing more about what you don't like with the Silvers and which TS you prefer.
Silver mod is much more transparent. Nice for hearing more of what your guitar sounds like. Early 80's ts9's with the jrc4558d opamp are a lot warmer sounding. More mid hump. If you use 2 tube screamers the silver mod is good for the cleaner position while the.early 80's ts9's is better for dirty. I actually prefer a ts10 for my clean with low drive and high level into a ross. Nobody talks about the ts10. I recently got an ibanez jet driver to try and I was very impressed with the mid knob. If you are looking for more mids on your dirty screamer this is it. Its like ibanez has paid attention to the modders and dropped us a nugget at a reasonable price. I love tube screamers and I have owned or currently own all different incarnations.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on January 28, 2012, 11:00:31 PM
Lol, I have always been a fan of the silvers personally. I have considered trying a few other TS's, mostly OD9 Silver. I am interested in the VOP9 as well, but I think the voicing might not be right for Phish. It is interesting to hear you guys don't like it as much, I would be interested in hearing more about what you don't like with the Silvers and which TS you prefer.
I'm a big fan of the original vintage ts-9s and ts-808s from the early 80's. When I was getting back into playing gigs back in '02 and I became interested in quality tone products, I started with 2 Keeley modded Ts-9. A "plus" and a "baked" model. I got myself a Keeley compressor at the same time. The serial number is in the 500s! Anyway, I liked the tone of these modded tubescreamers, but was never fully sold, as they interacted kind of funny with the comp. When Phish came back for 2.0, I didn't like Trey's tone as much and found out he was using the Analogman modded pedals, so I didn't bother trying one of them. It's just doesn't sound real. It's too electronic, digital, or fake sounding. Just not as authentic as his signal used to sound.
A couple years ago I finally decided to find out what the hype of the vintage ts-9s was all about. Got one on Ebay and loved it, which led to getting a 2nd one, and then a backup, which sounded even better than the first 2! It definitely had something more special about it! Not to say the other 2 aren't great od pedals, as they all are so similar, but when you start comparing them, you will hear some subtle differences. The midrange hump sounds great in these old ones. Maybe its the combination of the components inside that does it, or how old and how long they've been used; I don't know. Next I got really lucky and was able to get a vintage ts-808 that was beat to shit, casing was bonded back together after being busted open, but everything inside the pedal is original and the tone is definitely a step up from the ts-9. More clarity, more transparency, really clean sounding, even when the gain is turned up! And it reacts really well to dynamics. So I use it as my always on pedal, and use my 1st choice ts-9 as my gain pedal to add on more overdrive. The combination of the 2 work so well together that I have actually stopped my search for great tubescreamer tone.
Having said all that. I am beginning to experiment with finding some different kind of od and fuzz tones. I'm just kind of thinking about designing another pedal board with some dramatically different options to get some more unique sounding tones.
sours that's a good idea trying to use silver for clean and original for dirty. Maybe even 12volts on the silver and sag 7 volts on the dirty to really get extremes.
This discussion got me thinking about voltage doubling circuitry with something to regulated it down to 12v. I might have to try that mod in my clean TS9 and possibly my compressor for a little more headroom and clarity!
PS - I have been talking to Weber about the speaker and I guess they appreciated the review/comparison (I sent them a longer write up of my thoughts). They told me I could keep the speaker! That was very cool and totally unexpected.
Cool Heady. Didn't one of the Weber guys pass away a while back?
I think the original founder, Ted, did, but I am pretty sure it is his son or something that is running the company - he signs everything "TA Weber."
He had said the speaker was used before he shipped it, though it looks brand new, but in his last email he said it definitely needs some breaking in still, which makes sense (and may be audible in the comparison). I have heard these speakers have a relatively slower break in and really have a significant improvement over that course. I told TA that I would be happy to share the speaker with anyone in the PGH area who wants to test it, and if I pick up an extension cab, I might run it along with my Red Fang as I think they would balance each other nicely.
And per the effect discussion above, Retro Sonic said their pedal is meant to be at 9v (which I read as: don't increase the voltage), but I still think that would be cool to run a TS at 12v.
That's awesome Heady! First of all I thought it was cool that they'd send you a speaker to try out before purchase, but I figured maybe you had to send some sort of deposit or something. But they obviously stand behind their product! If you use those 2 speakers together, that really might provide some great tone, as I think they'd balance each other pretty well.
Yea, they really do and are self-described as relying on grassroots, word of mouth marketing. While I definitely wanted to test the speaker out, I don't know if I would have done a down payment or deposit just cuz money is tight right now for me. I think they are just hoping those they target for this sort of marketing are honest and willing to do their side by sharing their unbiased opinion. I really liked how TA said we would discuss the purchase or return of the speaker after I give my opinion because I felt no obligation to review their speaker more favorably than my actual opinion - I know this is questionable in other situations, not being able to know if the review is trustworthy or if gear was given in exchange for a favorable review, but that was not the case here.
I've got a 50 watt ceramic in my DR clone and it is fantastic. Once they're broke in its pretty hard to beat. Nice demo Heady.
Thanks man - I wanna break it in, but not looking forward to the process of it ;)
Run a continuous loop through it while your at work:)
Lol - the thought crossed my mind, up at the full 50 watts! I think my roommates and housemate (split house in 4 apartments) would not be happy oranges.
Yeah I figured. You could build an isolation box then you could use it any time and crank it up and it would be almost deaf to your peeps. Put a mic in there and get all that breakup. Google isolation boxes if you are not familiar.
Yea I have definitely thought about that. It would be great for recording, but even as a DIY, it seems the resources are a little pricey. Maybe next year if I find myself in a creative mood.
Sorry for bumping a dead thread, but I have the opportunity to trade my Weber California for a Weber Blue Dog. The owner has no idea of the specs besides it's 8 ohm. I'm not really chasing the JBL tone nowadays, so the trade would be nice to try something new.. Do you guys know of any identifiers besides the label?
Really digging the Steamboat Hemp 100 Heady suggested, so this Blue Dog might be a little excess.
Quote from: Buffered on January 18, 2015, 02:13:38 PM
Sorry for bumping a dead thread, but I have the opportunity to trade my Weber California for a Weber Blue Dog. The owner has no idea of the specs besides it's 8 ohm. I'm not really chasing the JBL tone nowadays, so the trade would be nice to try something new.. Do you guys know of any identifiers besides the label?
Really digging the Steamboat Hemp 100 Heady suggested, so this Blue Dog might be a little excess.
Nice - glad to hear you like the Steamboat! Post your thoughts on it after you play it some more.
Regarding the specs, I'd call or email Weber. The specs really influence how it sounds. If your planning on using it in a 212 with the Steamboat, the Weber is probably quieter unless it was built with a booster magnet (extra magnet to make it more efficient). The BD will also have less bass.