Per the interest in the Ted Dunbar Systems of Convergence book and multiple suggestions (specifically from Stiles, thanks you sir), as well as a need for a more fundamental starting point for many people (including myself), I took the time when I got to work early this morning to scrounge up this big ole PDF, about 540 pages of Yazz.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4S3f4zHrJF-a1VYQm9hUjZSUEs3Z3FGUllpT3h3QQ (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4S3f4zHrJF-a1VYQm9hUjZSUEs3Z3FGUllpT3h3QQ)
All I ask in return is to fill this thread up with your thoughts as you read it and questions you come up with as I am sure they will be helpful to others down the line, and someone will probably be able to help answer them for all of us!
PS - the file may be too big for Google Docs. I am trying to figure that out, but I have it on Drop Box and it works. I can share from there, but I would need to do it individually per person with an email address. I think you can still use the Google link and download the file if you want.
Sweet thanks. Going to give this a look when I have time.
I just downloaded it... it all works.
really a great book, enjoy
Nice!! Thanks for the effort you've put in Heady. I've really been trying to work on playing "outside" and substitutions and what not lately. I spent the first 6 years of my guitar playing learning theory (many years ago) and the last 15 years playing and learning tunes. I'm trying to get back in to the science side of it again and this file is gonna do the trick I think. Looking forward to technical discussion.
Yep, I have been reading on and off at work, got 60 some pages down (all fundamentals I knew so far, but can't hurt to hear it from Levine). It is a really fast read and I think the later sections will really pull things together for me. If I understand the basics of Russell's Lydian theory at all, I think the early section on the Lydian mode (or using #4s in major scales/chords) from this book might touch on Russell's reason for his theory. It makes me want to jump into that and I tried to find that on PDF as well, but I couldn't so far, though I did find an article opposing some of the technical aspect of his theory related to faulty evidence he used to support the theory related to overtones (that the overtones to imply the #4 any more than the natural 4). Maybe Russell should have stuck to his ear rather than technical aspects of overtones, but I still think that would be a good read to go along with this and the Dunbar PDF.
I know what you mean Shocked - when I was a teen, I learned a tune, then macroanalyzed it as much as I was able, then applied those techniques to the next tune I would write. Since then, I haven't taken as much time on theory, so it is nice to get back to it and get off the plateau of only utilizing what I currently know.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on March 15, 2012, 03:20:51 PM
Yep, I have been reading on and off at work, got 60 some pages down .....
OK I'm jealous. I'm too busy building factories that will make the CPUs for NEXT year's computers. If I get 10 min a day at work to look at a forum, its because I am slacking big time. I just got home and downloaded the book. Looking forward to the read. I still have some cats to herd for the man.
Lol, don't get jealous too fast, I had to quit my paying job for an unpaid position (in a different department of the same hospital) for credit hours toward schools. Every minute I am not seeing a patient is every extra minute I have to devote later (need a certain number of direct contact hours), just in research people cancel all the time, so I read. Since I work for free, they don't care what I do in my free time, though I think I am going to try to publish on some of their data in my free time rather than just reading. Basically, I would rather work the whole time and make money ;) [At least enough to afford Phish tickets to the show in Pittsburgh]
Fair Enough. You have a helluva guitar for a broke student. If you gonna be broke you might as well have a pimp guitar to show for it. I really shouldn't complain, I have had some measure of job security for 6+years, and there is no end in sight. I may have a Moog Voyager to show for it in 6 mo or so.
Nice, I'll bet the Voyager is sweet!
I have 3 years at the Hospital I work at (its the Psych Hospital in PGH that just had the shooting, I am usually walking to that building then, but was just getting back in town). I just switched to unpaid in January, so newly broke ;). I had to sell my Gibson Classic and some other gear for the guitar, plus it was a really nice price.
I finally got to play my guitar last night, but had to record something for school (there is a competition for making a 'Counseling Psych' video I suppose for advertisement, my friend and I decided to do a cross between Flight of the Conchords and the Freescore commercials). It was tough making something relatively mainstream after reading 100 pages of jazz theory that I want to apply. I need to stop reading until I get a chance to put some of it to use.
Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on March 16, 2012, 08:54:25 AM
Nice, I'll bet the Voyager is sweet!
I have 3 years at the Hospital I work at (its the Psych Hospital in PGH that just had the shooting, I am usually walking to that building then, but was just getting back in town). I just switched to unpaid in January, so newly broke ;). I had to sell my Gibson Classic and some other gear for the guitar, plus it was a really nice price.
I finally got to play my guitar last night, but had to record something for school (there is a competition for making a 'Counseling Psych' video I suppose for advertisement, my friend and I decided to do a cross between Flight of the Conchords and the Freescore commercials). It was tough making something relatively mainstream after reading 100 pages of jazz theory that I want to apply. I need to stop reading until I get a chance to put some of it to use.
I'm really excited about the past two books, thanks for sharing! I also picked up Sheets of Sound by Jack Zucker so these will keep me busy until those arrive. The Lydian Chromatics book by George Russell (not sure of exact title ATM) is at my library, if anyone is interested I could scan it, or try to figure that out.
I think the Lydian Chromatic (what its titled) would be interesting, especially as my understanding is that the Dunbar Systems is based off of it.
I agree, this reading will keep me busy for a while. Even the really basic stuff in the Levine book has cool examples that make me wish I still had a Fake Book.
Here's some food for thought. This is something I've been trying to keep on deck when improvising over a dom7/9th jam. It's a pretty simple concept but I thought I'd throw it out there since the Lydian family is being discussed. This idea is based around a half diminished played from the 3rd of the tonic. ie a c# half dim is the same as an A9. In this example I would throw in a C# Lydian dominant scale to play "outside" or create tension. I had this on my mind Friday night at the gig and was partly due to this thread. So thank you stiles and heady for helping jog my memory.
This is sick man. Thanks a lot. I'll check it out for sure.
Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on March 18, 2012, 12:56:55 PM
Here's some food for thought. This is something I've been trying to keep on deck when improvising over a dom7/9th jam. It's a pretty simple concept but I thought I'd throw it out there since the Lydian family is being discussed. This idea is based around a half diminished played from the 3rd of the tonic. ie a c# half dim is the same as an A9. In this example I would throw in a C# Lydian dominant scale to play "outside" or create tension. I had this on my mind Friday night at the gig and was partly due to this thread. So thank you stiles and heady for helping jog my memory.
I'm a little confused as to how this works in terms of C# Phrygian turning into Lydian Dominant and it working over a static chord jam, Is it because the 2nd (D# of C# lydian) is raised instead of normally flattened (D) for the Phrygian scale? Is that where the "outside" sound comes from? (Excuse me if it's a simple reason, I don't have a guitar in my hands to try it out on)
I was looking at it as weaving in and out of A mixolydian and C# Lydian dominant.
I do a lot of this, they call it sideslipping in theory but its a great way to build some tension.
I do it a lot on even more basic levels like minor pentatonic to aeolian natural by implementing the minor 3rd for tension. or half step rises pentatonically for a period of time before returning back to tonic. all aspects of sideslipping
Lydian Dominate and mixolydian are great because both work great of major/minor dominant 7 chords. one being an extreme major and another containing a veryyy minor sound. for sure if you are able to throw these together its a natural way to create tension.
Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on March 19, 2012, 10:04:12 AM
I was looking at it as weaving in and out of A mixolydian and C# Lydian dominant.
But in the key of A, wouldn't it be E mixo? I'm confused.
Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on March 18, 2012, 12:56:55 PM
Here's some food for thought. This is something I've been trying to keep on deck when improvising over a dom7/9th jam. It's a pretty simple concept but I thought I'd throw it out there since the Lydian family is being discussed. This idea is based around a half diminished played from the 3rd of the tonic. ie a c# half dim is the same as an A9. In this example I would throw in a C# Lydian dominant scale to play "outside" or create tension. I had this on my mind Friday night at the gig and was partly due to this thread. So thank you stiles and heady for helping jog my memory.
I meant to post earlier - like Tomas seems to be doing, I am wrapping my head around this, but what Shocked is saying (I think) is not that the C#9 is the same as an A9, but that a C# half dim comes from A mixolydian, which is D ionian (thus C# is locrian or half dim). So A9 and C# half dim are the same: A, C#, E, G, B = C#, E, G, B aside from dropping the A from the C# half dim chord.
When considering this in the context of C#9, the only similar note between A mixo / C# half dim and C#7 is the C#, which I think is what Stiles was saying about sideslipping: nearly each note is a half step from the scale the chord implies, which creates a lot of 'outsideness' or tension - A dorian would have no similar notes.
One thing to mention, Shocked puts this in the C# dominant lydian, so the F# from C#7 (the 4) is raised to an F## (double sharp) or G (I suppose enharmonically), which also occurs in the A mixo scale/chord.
So the two scales:
A Mixo: A B C# D E F# G A
C#dom lydian: C# D# E# F## G# A# B# C# EDIT: per Shocked's correction below, B# is lydian, Bnat is dominant, should be B rather than B#, I guess you can write out F and G rather than E# and F##, respectively
*I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation/understanding
**Also I think C# Dominant Lydian is the 4th mode of G# Melodic Minor Ascending.
***Aslo, as Stiles mentions, A Mixo over C#7 would sound VERY minor.
Heady you are right on track with everything. Sorry I didn't go in to more detail at the time of my post. I was posting from my phone. There is one correction. The C# Lydian Dominant is C# D# F G G# A# B C#.
After going back to my guitar and playing around with this concept I realized you could also use a Diminished Whole Tone scale starting from the C# to get some outside tones and create tension. This seemes to sound a little more "acceptable" than the Lydian Dominant from C#.
Sticking with the same example you could also play a Lydian Dominant scale starting from the tri tone sub of A.
I hope I'm not confusing anyone too much with some of these suggestions. It's been a while for me on the theory end of things and I confuse myself a lot. I've been trying to get back in to it and kicking around ideas such as these with like minded folks is something I don't get to do often. Unfortunately for me I understand more on paper than I do my instrument. Shit seems to get lost in translation from my brain to my hands.
Lol, I know what you mean about lost in translation! As I read and post (mostly read), I often cover more than I can play and I have been really struggling to find time to pick up my guitar, putting in at least 9 hours a day and more often from wake till sleep lately.
So the difference between the scale I had posted and the one you just posted is the B natural (E# is F, F## is G). And clearly, my mistake, as the B# would be lydian, the B natural makes it dominant. So I should clarify with the correction on comparing the scales, the lydian dominant would share the C#, G and B with the A Mixo.
When I was thinking about this application at first, I was thinking about diminished and whole tone options or even a split scale, starting with a diminished pattern and ending in whole tone (kinda weird, probably has another name that I am not recognizing). I forget the notes of the scale I had in mind right now, but it had the G and G#.
I really appreciate your posts, Shocked! That is exactly what I was looking/asking for when I posted the book - for people to recognize applicable stuff, as that is sometimes difficult from sort of 'textbook' reading, and the let others figure it out. While it took some discussion, I think that is very worthwhile as it leaves others with some cools ways to get outside the box (particularly the tempting pentatonic one, which should be the first goal - get beyond those 5). I don't think you wrote it in a confusing way, it is just that there will always be a wide range of ability to understand theory in any forum - someone like Stiles knew exactly what you meant, while I had to take some time to figure it out / makes sure I understood it. I am happy to put my brain to work and try to write it out in a way that I find more tangible, hopefully that will translate to most people who might not understand initially. If you wanna write it in the 'dummy' version ;) by all means, but it was also cool to piece together.
Good job guys. I'm barely checking in lately due to my new job but reading it as I can. Love it.