Altered Tones and Popularity

[Jkendrick]

I think it's pretty clear that I'm into the jazzier harmonies and I've recently been doing a deep dive into the more altered tone playing of some of favorites and trying to incorporate it into my own playing more. One thing I've noticed is that that style of playing dropped off dramatically for Trey as they (Phish) gained popularity. Might be a chicken and the egg situation but I really don't think that matters. If you look at Herring, his most commercially successful work to date is definitely Panic and he rarely goes deep into the altered tones as he does with other projects (which I vastly prefer BTW). I prefer early (and by early I mean EARLY pre-'93) stuff from Phish. I think I just like weird harmonies and that I'm probably in a serious minority. Can you think of any wildly successful bands that will play (either compositions or solos ) that rely on jazzier tones? Is it just that chord tones are king for western music and you better not stray too far from the pentatonic scale if you want anyone other than musicians to appreciate your music? Finally, do you think Phish, in particular, has consciously moved away from that stuff in order to capture an audience or is there another reason?

[Hans Moleman]

Is there a place for jazz in popular music? As someone who shares your interest in jazz harmony, altered tones etc., I'm not sure there is.

I also really love Phish's early prog/jazz influenced compositions. I think one reason for more accessible harmony is they started incorporating more singing into their music. It's something I grapple with in music I write – how on earth do you sing a "pop" melody over changes that include a couple of Maj7#11 chords and other weird stuff? Instrumental music just makes more sense.

Is there some aspect of their change in approach to try to appeal to more people? Possibly, but I don't see anything wrong with that. In the band I'm talking about where I write some jazzy stuff we make a conscious effort to have songs that don't get nearly as weird. I don't think we're pandering, it's adding variety in a set-list. Getting people up and dancing is hard when you're playing a lot of wacky stuff, I'm sure that's not lost on Phish, and that's clearly an aspect of their performances they like.

I know it sounds like I'm comparing myself to Phish but it's more that this question is something that I also think about so I hope it's not coming off pretentious or anything like that.

Herring - to me he's one of those perfect sidemen guys who just plays what's appropriate for the gig he's on, and Panic's not a great spot for him to go "out". I mean that as the highest of compliments. He can play basically anything but also has great taste. Now that he his own bands, he's able to go back to some jazzy stuff but knows that he'll still have Panic tours. He kind of gets the best of both worlds if that makes sense?

Unfortunately I don't think there's a lot of room in pop culture for the types of stuff you're talking about. Even an instrumental band like Snarky Puppy, you can see their music has gradually become simpler and more streamlined over the years. I love that band, but it's crazy to think even in instrumental music, which has a crazy limited audience to begin with, the same sort of phenomena is happening. Interesting topic to think about, for sure.

[Jkendrick]

Yeah I didn't mean to sound critical of Phish or anyone else who has moved away from that stuff. I get why I just think it's interesting.  Herring used to play crazy diminished stuff with ARU and those were very simple blues tunes. I'm sure he COULD do that stuff with Panic, but he clearly chooses not to (or was asked not to). Nothing wrong with that at all, but I personally would probably like Panic more if he let loose more.  I never listen to Panic and I love Herring.

[Teleprs61904]

A lot of it might have to do with the size rooms they were playing as they got bigger and bigger and bigger. A lot of more exotic harmony, especially in an improvised setting, might not really translate in a big echoey arena. It might not have been totally deliberate. But maybe as they played bigger rooms they naturally played differently bc the crazy shit just didn't sound as good in a huge cave of a venue.

Snarky Puppy is a great example of a popular band that uses crazy harmonic and melodic techniques. They're not an arena band, but they've won two grammies. I'd say that's pretty successful.

[Mister Buddy]

Teleprs61904 has it exactly right. I don't recall where I read it -- perhaps The Phish Book by Gehr -- but I remember an account that revealed that the band's decision to stop playing jazz standards and jazz-inflected tunes came about because they didn't think it would work in the larger rooms they began playing around 1993 and 1994.

OK, I just found it, in the discussion of 'Take the A Train' in The Pharmer's Almanc, Volume 6, where we are told: "Word has it that the band thinks jazz songs don't translate as well to larger venues" (p. 480). 'Caravan' and 'Take the A Train' make their final appearances on 12/29/96 and 4/13/94 respectively. Honestly, I doubt that Trey has the chops to play jazz compellingly these days, although I'd love to be proved wrong!