George Russell's Lydian Candy

[Heady Jam Fan]

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4S3f4zHrJF-SXJjYVFpcHZqSGc/edit

[Heady Jam Fan]

So this book is pretty cool, working through it slowly I am in on the 3rd lesson, but I decided to generate some scale substitutions for a ii V i in Dmin using the scale chart.

I wrote this as close to LCC jargon as I could, cuz I don't know the rules yet to break them, but for those of you who want to rip off my hard work without reading (and take what LCC has for a test-drive before investing), just pick which scale(s) you want to use while playing over the respective chords and see what happens!

For Dmin7, I used the VIth scale degree, giving an F parent scale, and found min7 in these scale types:
Lydian: D E F G A B C D
Aux Dim Blues: D Eb F Gb Ab B C D

For Edim7, I used the +IV scale degree, giving a Bb parent scale, and found dim7 in these scale types:
Lydian: E F G A Bb C D E
Lydian Aug: E F# G A Bb C D E
Aux Aug: E F# Ab Bb C D E
Aux Dim: E F G Ab Bb Cb Db D E

For A7b9, I used the II scale degree, giving a G parent scale, and found 7b9 in these scale types:
Lydian Dim: A Bb C# D E F# G A
Aux Dim: A Bb C C# D# E F# G A
Using the +V scale degree, giving a Db parent scale, found 7b9 in these scale types:
Aux Dim: A Bb C Db Eb F Gb G A
Using the VII scale degree, giving a Bb parent scale, found 7b9 in these scale types:
Lydian: A Bb C D E F G A
Lydian Aug: A Bb C D E F# G A
Lydian Dim: A Bb C Db E F G A
Aux Dim: A Bb C Db Eb E F# G A

Any of the the scales from the Lydian Chromatic can be used, but these will suit the chords the best. I offered scales from various scale degrees for the V chord, the first one will best match the V chord.

I did this in my office and haven't tried it on guitar yet, but I think it will give some cool options of playing changes. Russell seems to write out the scales starting on the tonic of the parent scale, but I listed them here starting on the root of the chord they represent as a reminder of which arpeggio to pay attention to, also showing the colors/intervals in relation to the chord-key. On paper, I also wrote them starting on the root of the overall key (D), which helps to compare what intervals/colors change relative to the VI degree of the F Lydian sccale (Dmin7 - Dorian in a more familiar musical system). In other words, thinking bitonally; what colors relative to the current chord, what colors relative to the key of the progression.

Hope this gets some people interested and give some inspirational scales to work with!
Jon

[Happyorange27]

Once again thanks.  I'm not getting much work done reading this pdf!

[Heady Jam Fan]

Lol, I know, I keep coming back to it between patients, a coworker came in and saw scales scribbled all over a paper and asked what the hell I was doing, looks like psychotic babble, but little did he know there was method to the madness.

[Heady Jam Fan]

While reading this and Tonal Convergence, I have found myself struggling with how to conceptualize changes in an efficient way that doesn't stunt growth in improvisation (ie, not just looking for easy tricks to sound outside without understanding what I am doing).

LCC doesn't put a lot of emphasis on chord tones so far in the book and Dunbar doesn't too much, though he does give chords that sound like the scale. LCC, IMO, goes in the opposite direction of how I was told to learn modal changes; he refers everything back to the parent scale (starting on the I scale degree), which is reminiscent of suggesting that any mode is the same as Ionian - while it has the same notes, if you believe they are the same, they will sound that same, which is bad. This bothered me a bit until I talked with someone who has studied the concept for many years and he said LCC consciously doesn't treat scale degrees like modes.

This helped me think about it in a way that I am finding a useful conceptualizations. I found myself at a crossroad of learning scale changes within a CAGED (or other) system (ie, charting them out from LCC in their various positions), or looking at them as interval changes from the key of the progression. I think Dunbar's book would have left me using the former system of conceptualization, but since LCC has gotten more applicable for me, I started using the latter conceptualization.

In other words, I would figure out what scale goes with the key of the progression, and for the changes I would first consider the arpeggio of the new chord in the same position and look at the additional intervals in terms of changes from the first chord/scale/key kind of separate from the arpeggio. This gives me the freedom of seeing how the arpeggio fits in the same position, but also recognizing the other intervals that I am free to change. Considering this, I know some of the additional intervals I like, but it has also freed me up to use a more chromatic approach while maintaining changes (not just completely free-form).

If this sounds confusing, I am just not writing clearly. I will write out the scale charts for i ii and V7b9 bellow, starting with the i chord in the E position (of CAGED). I will mark chord notes with X's and additional notes with 0's.

Code Select Expand


First note on the E string is the same note in all of these (ie, they are in the same position). I only marked the triad as chord tones. These are generated from the first scale of the LCC scales above for each chord.

- - x - 0 x -     
- - x - 0 0 -     
- 0 x - 0 - -     
- 0 0 - x - -     
- - 0 - x- - -     
- - x - 0 x -     

- - 0 - x 0 -
- - 0 x - 0 -
- x 0 - x - -
- - 0 - x - -
- - x - 0 x -
- - 0 - x 0 -

- x 0 - - -
- - - x 0 -
- x - 0 0 -
- - - x 0 -
- 0 0 - x 0
- - 0 - x -



[fulltone1989]

Never thought I'd say this but I am excited to go my side gig tomorrow so I can print the LCC off and start going through it! I think you explained this fine I'm just a little confused about the diagram below and I don't read that type of notation very much. Really interesting stuff and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this stuff.

IF you think about it, we could all do an online book club type deal and share what we've learned/help others through difficult passages (I know I would) of either this book or the Dunbar book. It'd be cheaper than a teacher at leasst 

While reading this and Tonal Convergence, I have found myself struggling with how to conceptualize changes in an efficient way that doesn't stunt growth in improvisation (ie, not just looking for easy tricks to sound outside without understanding what I am doing).

LCC doesn't put a lot of emphasis on chord tones so far in the book and Dunbar doesn't too much, though he does give chords that sound like the scale. LCC, IMO, goes in the opposite direction of how I was told to learn modal changes; he refers everything back to the parent scale (starting on the I scale degree), which is reminiscent of suggesting that any mode is the same as Ionian - while it has the same notes, if you believe they are the same, they will sound that same, which is bad. This bothered me a bit until I talked with someone who has studied the concept for many years and he said LCC consciously doesn't treat scale degrees like modes.

This helped me think about it in a way that I am finding a useful conceptualizations. I found myself at a crossroad of learning scale changes within a CAGED (or other) system (ie, charting them out from LCC in their various positions), or looking at them as interval changes from the key of the progression. I think Dunbar's book would have left me using the former system of conceptualization, but since LCC has gotten more applicable for me, I started using the latter conceptualization.

In other words, I would figure out what scale goes with the key of the progression, and for the changes I would first consider the arpeggio of the new chord in the same position and look at the additional intervals in terms of changes from the first chord/scale/key kind of separate from the arpeggio. This gives me the freedom of seeing how the arpeggio fits in the same position, but also recognizing the other intervals that I am free to change. Considering this, I know some of the additional intervals I like, but it has also freed me up to use a more chromatic approach while maintaining changes (not just completely free-form).

If this sounds confusing, I am just not writing clearly. I will write out the scale charts for i ii and V7b9 bellow, starting with the i chord in the E position (of CAGED). I will mark chord notes with X's and additional notes with 0's.

Code Select Expand


First note on the E string is the same note in all of these (ie, they are in the same position). I only marked the triad as chord tones. These are generated from the first scale of the LCC scales above for each chord.

- - x - 0 x -     
- - x - 0 0 -     
- 0 x - 0 - -     
- 0 0 - x - -     
- - 0 - x- - -     
- - x - 0 x -     

- - 0 - x 0 -
- - 0 x - 0 -
- x 0 - x - -
- - 0 - x - -
- - x - 0 x -
- - 0 - x 0 -

- x 0 - - -
- - - x 0 -
- x - 0 0 -
- - - x 0 -
- 0 0 - x 0
- - 0 - x -



[manicstarseed]

WOW...I got lost on page 2.

This is some dense material. I think I need a teacher to take me through this.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Never thought I'd say this but I am excited to go my side gig tomorrow so I can print the LCC off and start going through it! I think you explained this fine I'm just a little confused about the diagram below and I don't read that type of notation very much. Really interesting stuff and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this stuff.

IF you think about it, we could all do an online book club type deal and share what we've learned/help others through difficult passages (I know I would) of either this book or the Dunbar book. It'd be cheaper than a teacher at leasst 

While reading this and Tonal Convergence, I have found myself struggling with how to conceptualize changes in an efficient way that doesn't stunt growth in improvisation (ie, not just looking for easy tricks to sound outside without understanding what I am doing).

LCC doesn't put a lot of emphasis on chord tones so far in the book and Dunbar doesn't too much, though he does give chords that sound like the scale. LCC, IMO, goes in the opposite direction of how I was told to learn modal changes; he refers everything back to the parent scale (starting on the I scale degree), which is reminiscent of suggesting that any mode is the same as Ionian - while it has the same notes, if you believe they are the same, they will sound that same, which is bad. This bothered me a bit until I talked with someone who has studied the concept for many years and he said LCC consciously doesn't treat scale degrees like modes.

This helped me think about it in a way that I am finding a useful conceptualizations. I found myself at a crossroad of learning scale changes within a CAGED (or other) system (ie, charting them out from LCC in their various positions), or looking at them as interval changes from the key of the progression. I think Dunbar's book would have left me using the former system of conceptualization, but since LCC has gotten more applicable for me, I started using the latter conceptualization.

In other words, I would figure out what scale goes with the key of the progression, and for the changes I would first consider the arpeggio of the new chord in the same position and look at the additional intervals in terms of changes from the first chord/scale/key kind of separate from the arpeggio. This gives me the freedom of seeing how the arpeggio fits in the same position, but also recognizing the other intervals that I am free to change. Considering this, I know some of the additional intervals I like, but it has also freed me up to use a more chromatic approach while maintaining changes (not just completely free-form).

If this sounds confusing, I am just not writing clearly. I will write out the scale charts for i ii and V7b9 bellow, starting with the i chord in the E position (of CAGED). I will mark chord notes with X's and additional notes with 0's.

Code Select Expand


First note on the E string is the same note in all of these (ie, they are in the same position). I only marked the triad as chord tones. These are generated from the first scale of the LCC scales above for each chord.

- - x - 0 x -     
- - x - 0 0 -     
- 0 x - 0 - -     
- 0 0 - x - -     
- - 0 - x- - -     
- - x - 0 x -     

- - 0 - x 0 -
- - 0 x - 0 -
- x 0 - x - -
- - 0 - x - -
- - x - 0 x -
- - 0 - x 0 -

- x 0 - - -
- - - x 0 -
- x - 0 0 -
- - - x 0 -
- 0 0 - x 0
- - 0 - x -



No prob explaining my thoughts - I am sure they will change as I continue to read. I throw it out there for someone who might benefit from it as they get started, but also in case someone sees something I am missing or doing incorrectly. More perspectives are always better.

Those are charts are just scales; each line is a string, much like tabliture, but left to right are frets rather than time. They related to a minor ii V7 i. So the first scale is the minor i; the root/tonic is on the low E string (bottom left of the chart). I wrote out scales in an above post from the key of Dmin - in that key, the scale would be spelled D E F G A B C. Thus in the key of D, the note marked at the bottom left would be D.

The second scale is ii, a diminished scale/chord. From the key of Dmin, this would be spelled E F G A Bb C D E. The note at the bottom left of that chart is also D because it is also in the Edim scale, but you can also see it is not marked as a chord note (I didn't include the 7th, only the triad). So comparing the two scales, you can see what notes change since they are played in the same position/fret-range/register as the first scale.

The final scale is a V7b9. From Dmin, this would be A7b9, spelled A Bb C# D E F# G A. Again, I wrote this scale in the same position as the scale for the key of the progression, so it also has a D in the bottom left of the chart. Again, the D is not a chord note in the V7 chord.

I marked the chord notes differently than the other intervals because you really want to keep the chord notes as you are playing over the chord and intentionally use them to spell out the chord, in other words, playing changes. However, you can change any of the other notes that are non-chord intervals or add any extras as long as you play with conviction and it sounds good to you. Keeping it in the same fret range as the tonic/root/key of the tune helps you to see what intervals are changing and lets you decide what you might want to change, ad-lib, while also seeing the arpeggio of the i chord so you can make a powerful resolution back to a chord tone. Essentially, you can superimpose any of those scales above on another to see what changes you make when changing chords. For example, the A7b9 has an F# - the way the scales are written out you can see that it is a note you can really change to a natural without f'in up the scale over the V7 or your resolution into Dmin (i).

[fulltone1989]

I was finally able to print out the book and I got through Lesson 1, go me! Anyways, I've started to plod along through the testing section and I want to make sure I am doing things correctly.

D7 (II of parent scale)

Lydian - C D E F# G A B
Aux Dim -  C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb B
Aux Aug- C D E F# G# Bb

Dm7 (vii of parent scale)

Lydian - F G A B C D E
Lyd. Aug. - F G A B C# D E
Aux Dim - F G Ab A B C D Eb

This is just a sample of a few that I have done so far I just want to make sure I was doing the LCC thing correctly. I've been treating the chord root ( as an interval to the corresponding lydian scale as opposed to working the lydian scale off the root of the chord (Dm7 for example.)

The lessons in this book seems like they're a lot easier to apply to real life playing.

[manicstarseed]

I've been smitten

I understand,well enough, the stuff in this thread. Interested enough to grab the download and be utterly baffled by all the references to chart one and chart 3. I simply need to understand the parent relationship to the chord and how that gets put together outside a reference table.

I need a different approach to the information. I think I am at crossroads with simply relating the content in LCC to what I already know.
I found a few resources that have helped crack the nut. I simply need to work with it for a bit.

Its along the lines of:
Lydian... OK I know this,  that's the 4th mode CDEF#GAB, Sharpened 4th I mean that's in the key G or Em... OK now I can relate that to a known fingering.

Is that the parent scale? Is there some other relationship I am missing? Is this a desire for unobtanium?

[Heady Jam Fan]

Manic, I think the thing is that you can use stuff from the lydian system in reference to a modal system, but the lydian system was intended to be different. IMO, it is very difficult to gain something from LCC if you are trying to put it in a modal perspective. I found I gained much more (though I haven't had time to continue working on it in the past 10 days and will be out of town soon) if I tried to come in with more of a blank slate approach (no prior system concept used as a comparison to understand LCC) and to accept the approach as new.

It looks like you are using the term 'parent scale' incorrectly - correct me if I am wrong. I believe you are using the term to relate LCC to a modal system and attempting to relate the lydian scale to its ionian or aeolian counterpart (ie, where you say C Lydian is Gmaj or Emin). If it helps you to recall the fingerings, then refer back to the ionian or aeolian, but stop utilizing a modal system there and try to take Russell's approach from the book - and if you do refer back to ionian or aeolian for the fingering, remind yourself that you are playing lydian and not ionian (otherwise you might miss something from this system).

'Parent scale' is not referring back to ionian or aeolian, but rather the first degree (denoted 'I' on the chart included in the LCC book) of which ever scale your working from (Lydian, Lydian Augmented, etc). This process is simply helping you to find which (lydian) 'parent scale' goes with any given chord. So if you are playing over a A7b9 (V7) chord, you would first refer to the far right of the chart and find the chord type (I believe Russell calls it Altered 7th); you will see that chord could be found in the II, +V and VII scale degree of various LCC scales (what composes the remainder of the chart). The II scale degree will match the 7b9 chord the most because it is the first scale degree listed, so go through the rest of the chart, each scale, and look at what chord types are listed under the II scale degree. Each scale that lists 7b9 under the II scale degree can pretty easily be used with a 7b9 scale/chord. For the II scale degree, you can find 7b9 in two LCC scales:
Lydian Dim: A Bb C# D E F# G A
Aux Dim: A Bb C C# D# E F# G A
Since A is the II scale the degree, you count backwards to I to find the parent scale. The Lydian Diminish parent scale (see the scales above) would be G A Bb C# D E F# G. In other words, A7b9 is the II scale degree of G Lydian Diminish. While admittedly this is similar to saying an A7 (V7) chord is the 5th scale degree in a modal system from D ionian, making the scale mixolydian, LCC doesn't give the degrees modal names. You can also see that the scale derived (see above again) from LCC is different than Mixolydian as it comes from G Lydian Diminish.

I know I probably only touched on what you were asking about and that I probably wrote some stuff that was obvious, and I am sure I probably didn't write it in the least confusing way. I think ultimately, there will be a limited number of scale shapes for each chord type - while the chart makes it seem like there are never-ending options, I think once I learn a few of the shapes, it will all seem easier. Certainly if you are just using the first scale (Lydian) it is really just the 4th mode of the modal system, but I think things get muddier if you start trying to refer the other scales back to ionian or aeolian.

Sorry if this was not at all what you wanted, lol.

[Happyorange27]

Ouch!  My brain hurts.