Substitutions

[fulltone1989]

Basically, its a great tool when I find myself on a plateau and lacking inspiration - at those times I find my fingers are landing on the earliest scales I learned (major and minor pentatonic, mixo, dorian), the theory reminds my to step out of the box a bit.

On that note, I am rarely going to play a whole-tone, half-whole or whole-half diminish scale unless I intend to (and I definitely need to practice those if I want to use them - they aren't under my fingers yet). I think scales like this have more of a gestalt to them; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Its not about the arpegio so much as the effect of the pattern of notes in that scale - its not like just throwing in a b5 for a diminish sound IMO.

Another example of theory I need to practice to open up another skill is 4th voicing chords (quartal chords). I rarely use them, but think they are cool, crunchy and funky in an upper register. Not sure if I would be able to pick them up without taking a theoretical approach.

Yep.  I couldn't agree more.  My ear is very well adapted to b3, b5 and b7's.  So I probably play in that pent/mixo/dorian land a lot.  But since they're all based on intervals of the major scale, I try to kind of think (for example), "Well, I'm jamming in Dmin7 right now, so D dorian would sound great right now - but instead of thinking I'm playing D dorian, I'm going to play C major (or E phrygian, F lydian, etc)." 

I use a ton of triads.  TONS.  I'm a cheater

I agree as well, but as you guys know it's all the same thing note-wise and it just depends what note you start on.

As far as intervals go, what are you referring to? I tried discussing playing 3rds and 4ths ala Jimmy Herring with my classical instructor awhile back and it resulted in a 1/2 hour of ear barf from him regarding classifications of intervals. I always thought of it this was like this,

3rds as playing the notes of a scale 3 notes apart. C-E, D-F is a m3 though and that's when the classification issues start. I'll see if I can dig up a Jimmy Herring GP lesson where he discussed this and post it here!

Yep.  F is the flatted third interval (F#) of D.  That kind of "defines" the minor-y sound.  You got it.   I guess do whatever works for you... I was so worried about the theory for so long that it became an impediment to my playing - just play, worry about classifications later.  Although learning this stuff does expand your vocabulary, theory to me is somewhat of an afterthought.

Nothing good happens when I think about anything. 

Yes I know, I was referring to soloing in ascending thirds up the C major scale. C to E is the first, D to F is the second third but when you play the intervals by themselves it is a minor 3rd. I was just using that example to describe the differences in classifying intervals. E-G or A-C also serve as minor 3rds within the major scale.

The technique I am referring to is harmonizing a major scale into thirds but instead of playing the notes one at a time then moving to the next set of two. C-E, D-F, E-G, F-A,G-B,A-C, and finally B-D then back to C-E. Although we're harmonizing those intervals in a major scale, half of them are technically minor intervals. That's what I was trying to get at. If this doesn't make any sense I'd be happy to make a video.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Fulltone, your second to last post, you asked where the intervals we were referring to came from...

Did you mean my mention of 4th voiced chords? That is building chords on 4ths rather than 3rds.

Or did you mean what Stecks said about b3, b5, and b7? In that case, he was agreeing with my experience of falling back to notes or scales in soloing at a point of plateau in growth or during a deficit in inspiration.

I know what you mean by playing a scale in thirds; up two intervals, down one, repeat. The first, fourth and fifth set of thirds in that sequence are major, ie, the first two notes of the respective modes (and the respective, respective chords that go with the modes ). But I feel like your trying to explain something further than that and I'm not catching that yet.

[fulltone1989]

Fulltone, your second to last post, you asked where the intervals we were referring to came from...

Did you mean my mention of 4th voiced chords? That is building chords on 4ths rather than 3rds.

Or did you mean what Stecks said about b3, b5, and b7? In that case, he was agreeing with my experience of falling back to notes or scales in soloing at a point of plateau in growth or during a deficit in inspiration.

I know what you mean by playing a scale in thirds; up two intervals, down one, repeat. The first, fourth and fifth set of thirds in that sequence are major, ie, the first two notes of the respective modes (and the respective, respective chords that go with the modes ). But I feel like your trying to explain something further than that and I'm not catching that yet.

Hey Heady I was referring to harmonizing a major scale in thirds, ie 1 - 3rd degree, 2nd-4th and so on. But I was also talking about how "intervals" can mean different things to musicians and it's important to disambiguate between the different meanings.

The way that I am talking about is C-E D-F and so on with harmonizing a particular scale in degrees. 1 and 3rd degree, 2nd and 4th. The same can go with any "interval." I call these "thirds" because I play every three notes of the scale in succession.

Even though more than half of the "thirds" I am talking about are actually minor 3rds when the intervals between the two degrees in question are compared. Within the context of the overall major scale however, I just refer to them as thirds. Sorry if this was confusing.

On a side note, I picked up the Jimmy Herring cover of GP this month, no lesson (huge bummer) but some interesting points about improvisation! Great John Mclaughlin article as well.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Gotcha - musical jargon can be confusing, I try to be as specific as possible, but that sometimes takes away from the simplicity of a statement. I used to practice scales with all sorts of patterns, its definitely helpful and can even work for a short period in a solo (a measure or two), but you have to have an escape plan so you don't keep riffing on a practice pattern, lol.

McLaughlin is awesome. When I started studying/playing jazz in my teens, we would always spend a portion of the time listening to music. I remember one jazz teacher who was very strict in his opinion of what jazz is (he hated when Phish played jazz - I brought in Donna Lee one time for him), and I was surprised he was accepting of McLaughlin's fusion approach/sound - I can't remember if I picked Bitch's Brew or something else he play on to listen to that day.

[fulltone1989]

Gotcha - musical jargon can be confusing, I try to be as specific as possible, but that sometimes takes away from the simplicity of a statement. I used to practice scales with all sorts of patterns, its definitely helpful and can even work for a short period in a solo (a measure or two), but you have to have an escape plan so you don't keep riffing on a practice pattern, lol.

McLaughlin is awesome. When I started studying/playing jazz in my teens, we would always spend a portion of the time listening to music. I remember one jazz teacher who was very strict in his opinion of what jazz is (he hated when Phish played jazz - I brought in Donna Lee one time for him), and I was surprised he was accepting of McLaughlin's fusion approach/sound - I can't remember if I picked Bitch's Brew or something else he play on to listen to that day.

I agree with the riffing on a pattern problem haha, definitely done that before! I like to use them when I'm between ideas for a phrase when I jam over a static chord, can definitely generate some interesting sounds. Jimmy Herring does this is in many WSP jams and it sounds quite musical, albeit he changes them up often so as to avoid the practicing on stage problem we all sometimes encounter.

Bitches Brew is a great record! I'm giving In a Silent Way a listen right now actually.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Yea, one pattern I use sometimes is playing (on a diatonic scale) four notes in a row up, three down, repeating until I get to the high E string and then I bend a 4th to a 5th, hold it for a second, then play a blues or minor pentatonic lick down to the tonic on the D string.

It lacks the melodic, vocal kind of thing that actual improv should have, but it sounds sweet.

[Stecks]

Gotcha - musical jargon can be confusing, I try to be as specific as possible, but that sometimes takes away from the simplicity of a statement. I used to practice scales with all sorts of patterns, its definitely helpful and can even work for a short period in a solo (a measure or two), but you have to have an escape plan so you don't keep riffing on a practice pattern, lol.

McLaughlin is awesome. When I started studying/playing jazz in my teens, we would always spend a portion of the time listening to music. I remember one jazz teacher who was very strict in his opinion of what jazz is (he hated when Phish played jazz - I brought in Donna Lee one time for him), and I was surprised he was accepting of McLaughlin's fusion approach/sound - I can't remember if I picked Bitch's Brew or something else he play on to listen to that day.

John McLaughlin has DEFINITELY been a huge influence on me.   I used to rock Tribute to Jack Johnson all the time..  love me some Mahavishnu Orchestra, too.. 

[Happyorange27]

Thanks for the John McLaughlin reference.  I honestly never listened to the guy but I am right now on Pandora.  Good stuff.

[fulltone1989]

Thanks for the John McLaughlin reference.  I honestly never listened to the guy but I am right now on Pandora.  Good stuff.

Five Peace Band is awesome too for later stuff with Chick Corea.

Heady - 4 notes chromatically or scale degrees?

[Heady Jam Fan]

scale degree

[fulltone1989]

scale degree

Gotcha! Jumping back onto the Pat Martino book, I'm finding the first few pages a bit confusing as there are random numbers below notes as well as multiple fingering dots on one fret. Alternatively, playing a HW diminished line a 1/2 step up over a 7th chord is quite enjoyable and jazzy snazzy.

[Stecks]

Check out this John McLaughlin exercise using perfect fifths - I love this one:

[Happyorange27]

Thanks man!

[Stecks]

No problem.  Its simple and straightforward, but it can take you where ever you want...  I think its helped my playing, I do this one about once a week (should do it more... like RIGHT NOW!)  On that note....