A potentially blasphemous post on Trey tone

Arafel · February 03, 2016, 04:16:53 PM

I know we geeks like to discuss all the ins and outs of Trey's tone, what guitar he's playing, his amp settings, his pedal settings, etc. On my morning commute, I was thinking about how I think Trey's most beautiful guitar is the Ocedoc, and I always like to see him playing it. I was surprised that in Mexico, he went back to Koa 2 after spending most of last year with Phish and Trey band playing the Ocedoc.

But does the guitar make that much difference in his sound? I'd argue not. I also don't even think the amp makes that much difference. I had no idea until about a month ago that Trey had switched to Bogner heads from his Mesa III.

So I just went and listened to a couple of tracks from Dick's 2014 (Koa 2/Mesa III) and 2015 (Ocedoc/Shiva). And I don't hear any difference in Trey's tone. Maybe a very very slight one, but nothing significant. The Koa 2/Mesa III sounds slightly brighter than the Ocedoc/Shiva, but it's still recognizably Trey's tone.

I think the main component of Trey's tone is actually the dual TS9s. Anybody have an opinion on this?

Hoody · February 03, 2016, 05:19:49 PM

I think this is accurate as to guitars. there isn't a huge sound difference, or if there is its nearly impossible to isolate as the guitar b/c he has had different amp settings, different pedal levels etc. at the time he was playing different guitars. But i'd say no, the guitars don't make a big difference. And trey doesn't really care at all which one he plays. He's actually quite indifferent.

The amps i think make a big change. The DR and the Mesa sound different. And I think the Shiva sounds more even and smooth and less exciting. I notice that difference.

To me its always been the volume control on his guitar and the ts9's. that's the difference. Its all very dynamic, when he switched out the Ross it was glaring at first b/c of the way he had his settings. But more recently w/out the ross you could barely tell. It wasn't the ross, it was the ross coupled with the harsh settings of other things.

Heady Jam Fan · February 04, 2016, 08:30:19 AM

I tend to think similarly. Once the guitar is of a certain quality, small changes make diminished returns relative to all the other parts of the rig. A major difference from a lower end guitar to a higher end is at least as much playability as tone. A high end instrument ought to allow you to have lower action / easier playing without buzz and generally more consistency across the span of the neck, and it should have better hardware which ought to hold tuning and intonation better, as well as somewhat increasing resonance and sustain. Having said that, if I recall, Trey has mentioned some differences from one guitar to the next. I think he found the Koa livelier or richer than the Maple, and the bridge on the Ocedoc crisper than the previous instruments... I'm just taking a shot in the dark regarding specifically what he said, but I think he talks about this a bit in the rig video from last year.

I agree the amps make a big difference. The Fender and Blues is thinner and crisper, the alnico magnet is less punchy but more bouncy in the bass with a nice chime on the cleans, and certainly the best reverb. The Mesa is my favorite: the thickest and boldest, I also think the smoothest with the most powerful & sustaining leads. I liked the Shiva at first, but grew tired of it quickly: people often said it was too saturated sounding, but I found it fizzy or wooly compared to the smoothness of the other amps - I assume this is the combination of a less midrange-focused amp than the Mesa combined with less mid-focused speakers than the Blues or V30's (the Shiva had CL80's).

afountas · February 04, 2016, 10:14:07 AM

Also, the 2nd Koa and the Ocedoc have Bronze saddles in the bridge, instead of bone. I think this might actually be one of the biggest differences from his other guitars.

Paul Languedoc talked about this in an article a long time ago, right after he built the 2nd guitar.

http://www.jambands.com/features/2014/08/26/paul-languedoc-mixes-it-up-from-the-archives-august-1999?2

JW: So, as the years have gone on, Trey's tone has gone through a lot of changes. A couple of years ago, you built a new guitar for him. How did that come about? Did he come to you and say, "I want something new"?

PL: I think I decided to build a guitar. I don't know if he came to me or not. He needed a back-up guitar and I had the time to do it, so I decided to build this guitar. We had a few conversations about some changes, but there are really only two big changes. The bridge has a metal saddle on it. It's a fixed bridge. It doesn't have adjustable intonation on it. I think that helps with the tone. It doesn't have all those little metal parts in there to rattle around and stuff. The old bridge on the other guitar, his first guitar, has bone saddle pieces and this one has like a bronze metal actually set into the wooden, ebony bridge. So, that was one thing and then I thought changing the type of wood would give him....He talked about having a clearer sound and a more cutting sound. So, those were the two main things. This one is made out of Koa, where as the other one had a maple top on it.

Arafel · February 04, 2016, 10:48:08 AM

Quote from: Heady Jam Fan on February 04, 2016, 08:30:19 AM
I agree the amps make a big difference. The Fender and Blues is thinner and crisper, the alnico magnet is less punchy but more bouncy in the bass with a nice chime on the cleans, and certainly the best reverb. The Mesa is my favorite: the thickest and boldest, I also think the smoothest with the most powerful & sustaining leads. I liked the Shiva at first, but grew tired of it quickly: people often said it was too saturated sounding, but I found it fizzy or wooly compared to the smoothness of the other amps - I assume this is the combination of a less midrange-focused amp than the Mesa combined with less mid-focused speakers than the Blues or V30's (the Shiva had CL80's).

I don't know. Trey shifted to Shiva heads last year, running them into his Languedoc cabs. I've got some close up pics from when I shot Trey band. I don't hear a big difference from Shiva head/Languedoc cabs to Mesa head/Langeudoc cabs. Maybe it's the V30s?

Hoody · February 04, 2016, 12:11:39 PM

That's definitely true, the brass sadles are a lot brigher. But to my ear its hard to isolate sound changes to the guitar b/c there are so many other changes going on. But definitely the change from the Maple to the Koa (w/ brass) was noticeable. But i'd still say not as major of an impact as the amp switches.

the GD50 tone was certainly a lot different, too. And i liked it.

In terms of tone rankings, I'd have to say 97/98 w/ the DR and 93/96 with the Groove Tubes are my favorite. Listen to the Cliff Ball and Niagra 95. that tone is fantastic.

afountas · February 04, 2016, 03:39:57 PM

Yeah, it's super hard to actually figure out what's impacting tone... too many moving parts. I think something that hasn't even been mentioned is differences from venue to venue. i.e. indoor vs. outdoor venues sound entirely different, and the SBD is always tweaking the mix to optimize the overall sound. I think most people here are comparing SBD recordings which are a final post mix product.

Jkendrick · February 04, 2016, 05:15:38 PM

I liked Trey's tone when I last saw them in Bend last summer, but I wasn't crazy about what I heard from the sbds from New Years. I'm not sure if there were gear changes in there or if it's an indoor/outdoor or in person vs. on "tape" kinda thing like afountas says

dontpanic · February 06, 2016, 12:10:22 AM

I think treys 3.0 boogie tones are best. I actually think the bogner sounds quite nice, or was that when he decided to really step up the single usage?! Anyways, I have actually really started to dislike 97 (still too squishy) and never really cared for much before.. except 93 (boogie)! Call me crazy. 99-03 good stuff though. Different, but good.

Regarding the guitars... I can't tell. The amps and of course the effects are his tone differences these days.

Hoody · February 06, 2016, 09:54:37 AM

Did anyone ever find out if he tweaked his settings on the boogie for gd50?

Or did he just have the standard settings with a lot of pre, lot of mids, and lower master?

sour d · February 06, 2016, 02:24:47 PM

Quote from: Hoody on February 03, 2016, 05:19:49 PM
To me its always been the volume control on his guitar and the ts9's. that's the difference. Its all very dynamic, when he switched out the Ross it was glaring at first b/c of the way he had his settings. But more recently w/out the ross you could barely tell. It wasn't the ross, it was the ross coupled with the harsh settings of other things.

According to the recent guitar world interview and pics from mexico, Trey is still using the ross in his rig. It's mounted in the back of his rack. He's also using that H&K tube factor as well as the ts9's. Also from the pics from mexico it looked like he was using 1 analogman modded ts9 and 1 non AM ts9. Possibly an unmodded early 80's original ts9.

Heady Jam Fan · February 06, 2016, 02:54:11 PM

Speaking of bridges...

I just upgraded the bridge and tuners on my Phred. I can definitely hear the difference in the bridge. I went with a Wilkinson Brass Roller bridge to replace the standard Tune-O-Matic. It was a pretty quick and easy swap, much easier to intonate, and definitely sounds fuller.

As far as the tuners, I put on locking tuners with a 19:1 ratio. Stays in tune much better thus far, which is important when we might be playing 15 minutes songs!