Please, a little help guitarist to guitarist

[Danny41]

Hey guys, I was wondering if I could have a little help. I consider myself an intermediate/advanced guitarist, and I think my lack of knowledge regarding arpeggios is holding me back. I can play lots of different genres, but right now (being a Phish phan at heart) I am really taking to the Trey Anastasio sound. I can jam pretty much all night on the mixolydian, dorian, and pentatonic licks, but I feel like that gets a little boring after awhile.

I know that Trey uses certain arpeggios to spice up/add tension/make a jam more interesting, but I can't tell which arpeggios specifically.

My question is, could someone please tell me the arpeggios that Trey likes to play (tabbed out?), in what context he plays them, and a good resource to go to if I need to know more?

I understand the basics of music theory but do not speak theory very fluently. If you guys could take that into account, that would be so great.

Thanks so much! Really appreciate it guys. Push on 'till the day!

(dont mind the poll, im still figuring out this forum page and the poll is one thing that escapes me. dont vote please. just reply)

[fulltone1989]

Hey guys, I was wondering if I could have a little help. I consider myself an intermediate/advanced guitarist, and I think my lack of knowledge regarding arpeggios is holding me back. I can play lots of different genres, but right now (being a Phish phan at heart) I am really taking to the Trey Anastasio sound. I can jam pretty much all night on the mixolydian, dorian, and pentatonic licks, but I feel like that gets a little boring after awhile.

I know that Trey uses certain arpeggios to spice up/add tension/make a jam more interesting, but I can't tell which arpeggios specifically.

My question is, could someone please tell me the arpeggios that Trey likes to play (tabbed out?), in what context he plays them, and a good resource to go to if I need to know more?

I understand the basics of music theory but do not speak theory very fluently. If you guys could take that into account, that would be so great.

Thanks so much! Really appreciate it guys. Push on 'till the day!

(dont mind the poll, im still figuring out this forum page and the poll is one thing that escapes me. dont vote please. just reply)

I'd be happy to help you. You may know all the stuff I am about to say, or it may be wrong - but here goes.

In terms of arpeggios that Trey uses, and what many jazz and jam musicians use; is to change a particular mood with the 3rd degree of a scale. For example, if you're playing in A major on a static (non changing) groove, the 3rd is C#, flat 3rd is C. The 3rd degree defines the chord, and to me is the most-important part of the scale besides the root note. The only difference between mixolydian and dorian jams is that 3rd degree; with the dorian mode have that minor 3rd to express the saddened mood similar to that of the Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian modes.

You can also shift moods by playing different modes but remaining in the same key, providing the musicians your playing with follow you.

I think this is called Type II jamming.

As far as applying them to trey, if you google "the art of trey" there's a blog where this fella describes this mood shift quite well in video. Chalkdust torture at Super ball IX, Down with Disease, as well as Gotta Jibbo0000000000ooo all do the mood switch. GJ does more of a mixolydian/ionian (major scale) switch to a pentatonic/blues scale shift during the jam. I have several examples I can send you if you're interested.

You could try jamming in the darker modes - Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian. I also do this exercise to adjust my ear to the shifting moods by playing through the modes in this order but remaining in the same key. This is the order as it appears to my ear, you may disagree.

Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, and then Locrian. I go back up in the opposite order.

[Danny41]

Thanks for getting back to me, I really appreciate it!

I understand the second part of your message regarding the use of multiple scales to give a jam different flavors.

Regarding the first part of your message, you talk about taking advantage of the third degree of the scale. Could you elaborate on that?

How does that apply to arpeggios?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is: there are major, minor, sharps, flats, 3rds, 6ths, 13ths, and all sorts of different kinds of arpeggios. Are there any arpeggios that Trey uses quite often while jamming?

Thanks again!

[Happyorange27]

Danny,

Trey takes bar chords and plays each note at a time either up or down.  Mind you there are all of the formations of the CAGED system being used.  If you listen to Slave to the Traffic Light for example, in the jam Trey is playing lightly the middle strings of those bar chords that are of the formation based on E.  He also uses the formation based on G but like I said the middle strings are very common in the early jam.  Later in the jam these arpeggios start to use the higher strings and he even selects the next formation up the neck, but still hitting the same notes of the chord.

So lets say he is playing Slave: A G D E.  That vamp is made up from the four chords which build up jam.  I usually play that first A based off the 5th fret formation which is the CAGED formation based on E, but just slid up to the 5th fret (root is A on 5th fret of E string).  I play that chord and it's individual notes like a Hendrix chord, griping the middle strings in a diagonal right?  Ok then go to G; slide down to the 3rd fret root.  Follow with the D now maybe playing the middle strings with your index finger on the fifth fret.  If your doing that, you just slide up the CAGED formation based on G and you slid it up to the 5th fret (your playing notes in a D chord).  Just play any notes of these chords but play the notes individually. Get comfortable with that then begin to add little extra notes outside the chord but still in the scale.  Like hammer on and off a 9th or a 11th or whatever sounds good.

Ok now you want to ascend up the neck and build that jam.  So now you can start to play that first A chord up into a new location.  Play it up where A is actually the CAGED formation based on C (root is on the A string) and slide that puppy all the way up to the 12th fret.  Use those middle strings again.  If you end up using the top 3 stings it feels more like a CAGED D chord up on the 9th fret right.  That's ok too.  Just noodle on those notes.  Get creative.  Skip a string then come back to the skipped string.

Your goal in life as a Trey jammer is to find every CAGED formation on the neck and practice going from one to another.  I reality the C and D are the same formation (basically) so that's one less to worry about.  Also the A and G are very much the same but they kind of point in different directions.  If you don't know what this CAGED thing is, Google it.

Anyway I hope that helps.  If you want me to make you a video I would.  Happy jams.

[manicstarseed]

One trick that I see Trey using is alternate-picking his arpeggios. It looks like he is strumming gently (little movement), but really he is alternate-picking arpeggios. I just figured it out as I am beginning to pick up Free. Watching videos... I hear a single note line... descending arpeggio ... D-C-Em-D-G-D9 intro (top 3 strings only) and throughout the song with C-G-F-D9 and C-F-G-D9 played on strings 2-4. All the time  he is  "strumming " away with the groove, alt-picking the arpeggios. From what I can tell, this is how Trey does it (default approach). Anything else (rakes, all down/up pick, finger-pick) is done for a specific effect. The ability to pick a specific note in a chord is a technical skill that I need to developme.

Happy made a point that clicked for me.. the CAGED system. The ability to play the 5 chord forms in any position is so key to fluidity. I noticed that Jerry LOVED the C-form, now I am hearing that Trey does too. Its a tough form and realized that I can not get on w/ YEM because I have not mastered that form in the 13ths position. YEM starts as the C-Form in 13th position alt-picked for like 5 measures.. you asked for tabs.... Hows this? This still hurts. With A and E-forms covered, I have integrated some versions of the G and D forms in my play but the full C-form is challenging me for strength, endurance and targeting. I picked up the "Fretboard Logic" series... for me... worth every penny.


YEM exercise... (L=tied note)
E |-----------------10-13-10---------------------------|--10-13-10-------------------------10-13-10---------|
B |--------------11----------11-------------------11---|-----------11-------------------11----------11------|
G |-----------10----------------10-------------10------|--------------10-------------10----------------10---|
D |--------12----------------------12-------12---------|-----------------12-------12------------------------|
A |--13L13----------------------------13L13-----------|--------------------13L13---------------------------|
E |-------------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------|


--------------------10-13-10--------------------------|-----10-13-10-------------------------10-13---------|---------------|
-----------------11-----------11-----------------------|--11----------11-------------------11-----------------|---------------|
--------------10-----------------10--------------10---|-----------------10-------------10-----------10-10---|--10----------|
--12-------12---------------------------------12------|--------------------12-------12-----------------------|---------------|
-----13L13-------------------------13L13-13---------|-----------------------13L13--------------------------|---------------|
--------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------|---------------|

[Happyorange27]

Yep that's a great one to practice. I enjoy raking or sweep picking this form (C) and also the minor form (Cm). That's a whole other beast. The beauty is once you get familiar with them, you start to get to knOw where the usable notes are in that scale while jamming.

I am always trying to get those fast pull off repetitive licks down like at the apex if Trey solos. You can see that they can be derived from arpeggios. It's hard to make yourself play slow because you want to show off but then you teach your muscles incorrectly if you don't nail even beats.

Let's be real, playing fast accurately is bad ass. I work on this and have far to go. Cool part is it becomes natural and second nature if you put in the time. So many exercises; so little time.

[Danny41]

Hey guys, thanks a bunch for all the juicy guitar info. Everyone, really, I appreciate it.

Manic, thanks for the YEM/Free exercises, you know I'll be playing those nonstop now.

Happy, I have actually stumbled upon and been playing a lot of those alternate chord formations (I now know that the CAGED system is the technical name) without really thinking about it like that, so it's great to see that there is theory behind all this. thanks for that!

Now, I understand the idea of using those arpeggios with chords just to give a chord progression a little spice. What I am wondering is, are those arpeggios applicable to jams/solos?

Using the Trey Anastasio sound, could I be soloing/jamming with a scale for a while, and then throw in an arpeggio every once in a while to make things constantly sound new and fresh? How often does Trey do that? Its a lot to ask, but if you could make a video outlining when Trey would use an arpeggio in a solo-situation, I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks so much!

[IamWILSON]

"What I am wondering is, are those arpeggios applicable to jams/solos?"

Those arpeggios should really be the foundation of jams/solos!  Think of it this way.  The arpeggios consist of the R, 3, 5, and sometimes the 7th.  They are the notes that are played in the chords.  So when you want to play "in" you'll use lots of the arpeggiated notes.  You can also add pentatonic scale tones to add more color, but still sound in key.  Maj Pent = R, 2, 3, 5, 6.  Wanna use more notes?  Add the 4th and/or 7th (or b7th), now you'll be playing diatonic scales.  Keep in mind the minor arpeggio is R, b3, 5, and that your min Pent scale is R, b3, 4, 5, b7 (add the 2 and 6, or b6 if you want to play a Dorian or Aeolian mode).  At any point you can use any chromatic notes that are not in the diatonic scales to add even more tensions.  But you will want to resolve them back to the arpeggio notes so your lines still lead you back into the key, because after all, the arpeggio notes just outline the chords; and if you connect the chord changes with chord tones (arpeggios) as they change you then can sound the changes of the progression even without another melodic or harmonic instrument backing you up.

[manicstarseed]

Wilson, That's some great information. I wanted to reply " Arpeggios inform Trey's solos" but what you said is far more practical. Excellent chunk of theory there.

As for  Danny's question of "...Could I be soloing/jamming with a scale for a while, and then throw in an arpeggio every once in a while to make things constantly sound new and fresh?" ... It can go both ways... Not only can one do what Danny mentioned, one can also play an arpeggiated chord progression and add a single note riffs here and there to take things to a new place. The trick to it all is to make it musical and tasteful. Either way, Wilson boils it down to the theoretical essence.

[Danny41]

hey thanks so much for everything guys

[Flavaham]

Some good stuff here guys!  I have to ask though, what is the CAGED form?  I'm not familiar with this term.

As for arpeggios, one thing that you can do, (and there are almost limitless ways to practice this) is to just figure out what key you are in and find all of the triads in the scale.  For example, if you are in C major, play all seven triads up and down the neck.  There are a ton of ways to do this.  Here's an example tabbed out:

     C        Dm    Em      F           G           Am          Bdim       C
E|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
G|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
D|----2-5----3-7----5-9----7-10-----9-12-----10-12-----12-15-----14-17--|
A|-3-------5------7-------8--------10-------12---------14--------15----------|
e|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

There are tons of ways to practice this.  Try what I've tabbed out.  Then, try it with the root and third on the A string and only the 5th on the D.  Then, Root on the A, third on the D, Fifth on the G.  Maybe try all three on the same string.  Add the root to the top so that you are playing the arpeggio to the octave.  Go to the third an octave higher, etc.  There are so many ways to play arpeggios really.  Once you are good with triads, add the 7th.  Later, start extending the chord within the scale.  Play a C major arpeggio within the C major scale, two octaves so that you are playing the notes C-E-G-B-D-F-A-C.  Move up to the Dm and do the same. 

As for picking technique, there are NO shortcuts.  You have to start slow and gradually get faster.  If you try to learn too fast you'll never get it down clean.  A lot of this stuff comes from first learning scales all the way up and down the neck.  Once you do that, find the arpeggios within the scales.

Hope this helps!  (also, hope the TAB comes out right...not sure how the font on this board will set up)
-G

[picture_of_nectar]

god....I have so much work to do. but whenever I have time to squeak in an hour of playing here and there...I just wanna jam...getting tired of noodeling around in scales tho....time to dig in.

[Happyorange27]

Good stuff above^.  Practicing isn't always fun but it is always rewarding, a bitter sweet thing.  Sometimes I just jam and noodle for like a half hour and it's totally a sweet release but sometimes I feel guilty because I could have been practicing or learning something new.  When I do the latter, I always feel good about myself because I pushed my skills just a little bit that day.

On another tangent, much of Trey's music (the written music) can be a very useful way to learn the fundamentals, especially arpeggios.  It's almost like many of his songs are classical exercises that forced him to navigate all these passages and licks.  In jazz band we always started the day doing these 12 bar blues and the teacher made us play all the triads and arpeggios of each chord on each bar.  It got us familiar with those key anchor tones in each chord and how they moved the song along.  You could always count on those arpeggio notes to be your baseline.  Then as we learned to improvise, you started to throw in some of the other diatonic notes.  Then you learned some of the blues or penatonic notes...mmm more flavor.  Then you started throwing is some little chromatic notes....mmm more flavor. 

I was fortunate to have a teacher that actually spend an hour a week one-on-one with me so that I could learn to improvise.  We used to sit in a tiny room and he would either play the piano and i would solo or he would play the Jamie Abersold records.  If you don't know what the Jamie Abersold system is, you best be Googling that shit right now and take advantage.  Best way to practice improvising in my opinion.

Anybody else out there have any jazz band experience like this?  I'm telling you it was the number one learning experience that shaped my entire passion for improvising.  So thankful.  The learning, however, never ends.

[manicstarseed]

Flavaham:

CAGED  is a method of understanding the guitar, based specifically on the pattern organization, of the standard tuning system. The name (CAGED) is derived from the 5 basic chord  forms (movable-shapes) that  frame the pattern organization.
Assume you want to make a "C" chord, Starting with the first shape, Use the C-Shape (normal open form). The next C-chord up the neck is the A- Form (Think A-style bar chord). The next C-chord up the neck is the G- Shape (Think open G-Chord). These are all movable shapes that utilize a barred-index finger as the nut. The next C-Chord up the neck is the E-shape (at the 8th fret) and the last.  The D-Form of the C-Chord is the final shape before the pattern repeats.  All these shapes lead into the next shape. They all tie together.
Thus the C-A-G-E-D name. It is a fantastic system that helps understand the guitar from the  pattern organization dictated by the tuning.  We all master the A and E- forms. C-G and D forms take more work and many use elements (partial) of the forms.
Its nt all about chords too. The system also addresses solo work in the patern organization.

Fretboard Logic is a 2-publication series that I have used and it goes into incredible depth on this topic.

[Flavaham]

Flavaham:

CAGED  is a method of understanding the guitar, based specifically on the pattern organization, of the standard tuning system. The name (CAGED) is derived from the 5 basic chord  forms (movable-shapes) that  frame the pattern organization.
Assume you want to make a "C" chord, Starting with the first shape, Use the C-Shape (normal open form). The next C-chord up the neck is the A- Form (Think A-style bar chord). The next C-chord up the neck is the G- Shape (Think open G-Chord). These are all movable shapes that utilize a barred-index finger as the nut. The next C-Chord up the neck is the E-shape (at the 8th fret) and the last.  The D-Form of the C-Chord is the final shape before the pattern repeats.  All these shapes lead into the next shape. They all tie together.
Thus the C-A-G-E-D name. It is a fantastic system that helps understand the guitar from the  pattern organization dictated by the tuning.  We all master the A and E- forms. C-G and D forms take more work and many use elements (partial) of the forms.
Its nt all about chords too. The system also addresses solo work in the patern organization.

Fretboard Logic is a 2-publication series that I have used and it goes into incredible depth on this topic.

Wow, how have I not seen that? (either written somewhere or stumbled upon...)  This reminds me a lot of how I use the pentatonic shapes for improvising.  Just know all five positions and know which three minor pentatonic scales can be used over the key you are in.  Example - Am/Cmaj, you can solo for days using minor pentatonic scales based on D, E and A. 

As for the "CAGED" system, I'm assuming this works for minor by simply using the minor forms.

Very cool stuff here!