Calling all speaker connoisseurs!!

[Heady Jam Fan]

Was the Blackhawk you heard the High Power or the original, 50w one? Was it dark compared to an American speaker or other British ones like the C Blue?

[Happyorange27]

Here is where I heard it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Heady Jam Fan]

Yea, I have seen that. My favorite was the Blue followed by the V30, Red Fang and Gold, all pretty close to each other.

However that video does not have the WGS Blackhawk in it - you are probably referring to the Jensen Blackbird, which is pretty scooped I think, big bottom end.

[sour d]

these guys on ebay usually have some interesting speakers ready to go
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-ROLA-based-custom-PMR-hemp-fiber-NICE-/170840108208?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c6dd2cb0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-WHITE-HEMP-PULP-Eminence-CTS-BIG-MAGNET-/170878985488?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c92e6510

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-Eminence-based-HEMPOPOTAMUS-series-/170840108542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c6dd2dfe

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-GUITAR-SPEAKER-WHITE-HEMP-PULP-CLEVELAND-AlNiCo-MAGNET-Ultra-SMOOOOOOTH-/170878994349?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c92e87ad

I bought a vintage 30 based speaker off them a while back. 80oz magnet, 2.5" voice coil, hemp cone. It sounds really good in the hot rod deluxe I put it in.

[Happyorange27]

Sweet D. And they are within driving distance for me. Really like what they have to offer. GAS!!!

[Heady Jam Fan]

Just got a custom speaker from WGS; a standard Blackhawk with a 100w voice coil, essentially similar to a Celestion Gold with a 100w power handling, unlike their Blackhawk HP that has a different resonance cone and a 3in dust cap, sounding more like an EV SRO. Dean, the production manager at WGS had messaged me and offered to build it, we talked on the phone last saturday night, it shipped two days after I gave the go-ahead - awesome service, not to mention a 30 day return policy!

Their site says the speakers take about 24 hours to break-in and it definitely still needs it; typical stiff sound/feel and harsher top-end - I rolled my presence off (it was at 3 on the knob) - though I hadn't replaced my baffle either, which will dampen the treble once I put it back on. However, my initial impression is that it really hits the mark! It has a more complex midrange timbre that other Celestion Gold/Blue clones seem to lack - the Red Fang was complex, but more just crange-y, the Weber Blue Dog was more glassy maybe. Anyway, the Blackhawk seems to have that swirly, 3D midrange that people like about Celestion's builds.

The low-end it pretty tight, pretty close to the RF or BD (had a 50w ceramic) even though it doubles the power handling. Its rated at 99db sensitivity, so it is a little quieter than the RF (rated 103, but thats probably a db or two high), BD (not rated, similar to RF though) or Celestions (rated 100db).

Looking forward to breaking this speaker in, but I think its a keeper and I hope they make it part of their standard line of products! Hopefully I will have an update soon when it breaks in cuz I am only decent at guessing how a speaker will sound after that.

Oh yea, I also got a Remin Tri-Kart 750 hand-truck/dolly that seems pretty sweet. Their site and advertising is pretty crappy, but it has decent size wheels, feels very sturdy, comes with bungy straps that seem they will hold the MKIII in place, tilt-back wheels that keeps the amp at a nice 45 degree (or so) angle, and folds up pretty nicely; the handle goes down about the same height as the amp and the tilt-back wheels tuck in tight so I can just toss the whole thing in my trunk. The only problem is the feet of my Mesa don't fit perfectly on the bottom and the plugs for the effect loop in the back line up with the frame of the dolly, so I have the amp shifted slightly to one side - still seems sturdy, but I'll have to see if I keep it.


UPDATE:
Since this post I have: played the classic rock radio station through the speaker for about 24 hours, practiced at home a couple times for a few hours and practiced with my classic rock band for 3 hours. The speaker has broken-in exceptionally well, the top-end has mellowed significantly and the speaker is much less stiff. I would definitely suggest this speaker for someone who wants a 100w power handling speaker similar to a Celestion Blue or Gold. The only competitor is the Weber 100w Alnico Blue Dog, which I think would also be very good (after owning the 50w Ceramic). The other guitarist in the classic rock band noticed the new speaker by the sound and definitely liked it.

[fulltone1989]

Hey everybody, figured I rebump this for another speaker quest. I'm looking to swap out the Classic Clone in my Soul O 45, it's alright but sounds sterile to me as of late. I don't really know what to look for in terms of speakers though, whats new/classic, who uses what, etc. The amp has MM trannys w/ a 4,8, and 16 ohm tap switch, would I be fine ordering any of those configurations? The normal speaker jack on the amp doesn't have an ohm rating on it, and neither does the CC. I'm interested in finding a speaker that won't overdrive, and naturally Trey and Jerry's tone are twp pf my favorites and I would be looking for a similar type of feel from this speaker. Apologies if this has been covered ad nauseum but after rereading this thread I'm interested in opinions new and old still. Thanks for your advice in advance!

[Heady Jam Fan]

My understanding is Jerry used various speakers - and amps - and I am not as versed in his gear, but I would think something classic like an old JBL would be up his alley.

For Trey, you have a few good options that should handle your amp:
Celestion Gold would be fine
Weber 50w Blue Dog would work according to them
Eminence Red Fang is also rated at 50w and I think it would handle it
WGS Blackhawk

You cant go wrong with any of those speakers. They all ought to handle a 45w amp because that type of design (C Gold copies) are generally rated conservatively. I wouldn't worry about the Gold on a 45w amp, Weber says their 50w should also handle 50ws. I never looked into the actual power handling (whether the rating was as conservative as Celestion's rating) for the Blackhawk because I needed their higher (100w) custom option for my Mesa, or the Red Fang, but I know a few people who use the RF on 50 watt amps and I have as well.

However, if you want to be extra safe with power handling, the 75w Weber or WGS 100w Blackhawk (the custom build that I have, which they might, if they haven't yet, start offering in their line of speakers - not the Blackhawk HP!) would be good options. Higher power handling can result in a warmer speaker, however the custom Blackhawk uses the same cone as their lower power handling speaker, just with a 100w voice coil (not sure about what changes between power ratings on the Weber speakers).

Of course, all these speakers are pricey, probably averaging $250 after shipping. They are hard to find used, but you might get lucky, especially since you have multiple resistance (ohm) rating options on the output of your amp. You can also run a 4ohm output into an 8ohm speaker, or an 8ohm output into a 16ohm speaker if need be - it might have a mild effect on tone.

I really loved my Eminence. It has a more aggressive upper midrange than some other options, but has more of a dip right in the center of the midrange (you can see on their frequency plot). I only stopped using it because I needed a higher power handling speaker for my Mesa when using the Simul-Class setting (needed the extra volume from the 2 6L6's).

So now I am using my WGS and I am thrilled with it. Their customer service is also awesome.

Weber's customer service is great too. In fact, both companies are great resources if you have more questions. I preferred my Red Fang over the 50w Ceramic Blue Dog that Weber gave me a while back. However, Weber wasn't clear how well they had broken the speaker in and it was a bit harsh, another 24 hours of break in might have made a big difference, as well as an Alnico magnet.

If you go with the Celestion Gold and can't find a used one, buy through Avatar speakers, great prices!

I do still have my Red Fang and I am not using it. If you wanted to try that out, I would be happy to figure out a price that works for both of us. Also, the Red Fang is the loudest of all of these speakers, rated at 103db (might be rated a little higher than other companies would have rated it) compared to 99 to 100db for the rest of them. Just depends if you want a little extra volume on your amp or or not - I didn't notice much difference compared to my 99.4db WGS, but it was noticeably louder than my EVM12L - probably more of a tonal/perception thing.

Also, Trey used Celestion V30's with his Mesa. It will be more aggressive if you prefer that (I don't know anything about your amp or the toanz your already getting from it). Those are pretty cheap ceramic speakers, they are classic-rock classics, often mixed with Green Backs. If you prefer that route, but want Alnico, I believe both Weber and WGS have that option as well.

Lastly, some people would say it is ridiculous to spend $250 on a speaker, but I think that (the amp in entirety) is one of the most important parts of your tone (more so than guitar and pedals IMO). Despite my tight finances, I think it was worth it to me, but if you just want an upgrade rather than the real deal, there are lots of good options. I love my gear and have been playing out, plus it is the only luxury I spend money on (the rest goes to groceries, beer, rent, my girlfriend and education), so it is worth it to me. The Ceramic Blue Dog is a good option if you want to save $100 on a new speaker though.

Hope this helps get your search started!

[fulltone1989]

Thanks Heady! Your posts are lessons unto themselves. I see that the Red Fang is 30w or is that just another power handling option in addition to the 50w? Although I can agree with you all here in saying that Trey's incredible tone has a lot to do with his speakers, I wouldn't mind looking at something that can get me in the ballpark of Trey but also excels at jazz (warmth and mids) and funkier stuff (clear high end definition) Can the Red Fang do that? I've also tried the Cannabis Rex when I had a Traynor YCV40wr which sounded very nice, but that's my only starting point in terms of using other speakers.. Thanks again for your advice and in any case i'd like to try the Red Fang.. I'll PM you! 

My understanding is Jerry used various speakers - and amps - and I am not as versed in his gear, but I would think something classic like an old JBL would be up his alley.

For Trey, you have a few good options that should handle your amp:
Celestion Gold would be fine
Weber 50w Blue Dog would work according to them
Eminence Red Fang is also rated at 50w and I think it would handle it
WGS Blackhawk

You cant go wrong with any of those speakers. They all ought to handle a 45w amp because that type of design (C Gold copies) are generally rated conservatively. I wouldn't worry about the Gold on a 45w amp, Weber says their 50w should also handle 50ws. I never looked into the actual power handling (whether the rating was as conservative as Celestion's rating) for the Blackhawk because I needed their higher (100w) custom option for my Mesa, or the Red Fang, but I know a few people who use the RF on 50 watt amps and I have as well.

However, if you want to be extra safe with power handling, the 75w Weber or WGS 100w Blackhawk (the custom build that I have, which they might, if they haven't yet, start offering in their line of speakers - not the Blackhawk HP!) would be good options. Higher power handling can result in a warmer speaker, however the custom Blackhawk uses the same cone as their lower power handling speaker, just with a 100w voice coil (not sure about what changes between power ratings on the Weber speakers).

Of course, all these speakers are pricey, probably averaging $250 after shipping. They are hard to find used, but you might get lucky, especially since you have multiple resistance (ohm) rating options on the output of your amp. You can also run a 4ohm output into an 8ohm speaker, or an 8ohm output into a 16ohm speaker if need be - it might have a mild effect on tone.

I really loved my Eminence. It has a more aggressive upper midrange than some other options, but has more of a dip right in the center of the midrange (you can see on their frequency plot). I only stopped using it because I needed a higher power handling speaker for my Mesa when using the Simul-Class setting (needed the extra volume from the 2 6L6's).

So now I am using my WGS and I am thrilled with it. Their customer service is also awesome.

Weber's customer service is great too. In fact, both companies are great resources if you have more questions. I preferred my Red Fang over the 50w Ceramic Blue Dog that Weber gave me a while back. However, Weber wasn't clear how well they had broken the speaker in and it was a bit harsh, another 24 hours of break in might have made a big difference, as well as an Alnico magnet.

If you go with the Celestion Gold and can't find a used one, buy through Avatar speakers, great prices!

I do still have my Red Fang and I am not using it. If you wanted to try that out, I would be happy to figure out a price that works for both of us. Also, the Red Fang is the loudest of all of these speakers, rated at 103db (might be rated a little higher than other companies would have rated it) compared to 99 to 100db for the rest of them. Just depends if you want a little extra volume on your amp or or not - I didn't notice much difference compared to my 99.4db WGS, but it was noticeably louder than my EVM12L - probably more of a tonal/perception thing.

Also, Trey used Celestion V30's with his Mesa. It will be more aggressive if you prefer that (I don't know anything about your amp or the toanz your already getting from it). Those are pretty cheap ceramic speakers, they are classic-rock classics, often mixed with Green Backs. If you prefer that route, but want Alnico, I believe both Weber and WGS have that option as well.

Lastly, some people would say it is ridiculous to spend $250 on a speaker, but I think that (the amp in entirety) is one of the most important parts of your tone (more so than guitar and pedals IMO). Despite my tight finances, I think it was worth it to me, but if you just want an upgrade rather than the real deal, there are lots of good options. I love my gear and have been playing out, plus it is the only luxury I spend money on (the rest goes to groceries, beer, rent, my girlfriend and education), so it is worth it to me. The Ceramic Blue Dog is a good option if you want to save $100 on a new speaker though.

Hope this helps get your search started!

[Heady Jam Fan]

No prob man - I still have a lot to learn about speakers, and definitely have a list of ones I would like to try for curiosity and knowledge-sake, but I can't imagine not using one of the ones I mentioned in my post above at this point because of the tonal qualities I'll get to below.

The old Red Fang was listed as 30w because it was only competing with the Celestion Blue. When the Celestion Gold came out, Eminence changed the rating to 50w, but I don't believe they actually changed the speaker, it was just originally rated very very conservatively. If you check their site, it is rated 50w. If you crank a 45w amp, it is most ideal to use a speaker rated 20% higher (some people even say more than 20%), which would be 54w (obviously no one rates a speaker 54w power handling). However, Celestion speakers and most clones handle what they are rated at (ie, a speaker rated to handle 50w ought to handle a 50w amp). If the amp is pretty clean, you can almost always use a speaker rated to handle the same wattage as the amp because the ratings are for clean tone (obviously if you use a Master Volume, you can get the amp to overdrive before you reach the full watt/power of the amp). So you just have to decide what works best for you - like I said, if your cranking your amp, 60-75w might give you more comfort/less anxiety, if your not cranking it, 50+w, I think, would be okay.

The Cannabis Rex is a great speaker, but very different from the ones I mentioned above. I was looking at it a while back for more of an American Classic Rock tone and I went with the Swamp Thang, which I thought was similar, but more complex and aggressive sounding compared to the C Rex, which is dampened in the treble and smoothed out a bit by the hemp. Those American speakers have a ton of bass, especially compared to most British-voiced speakers and the C-Blue and speakers it inspired are very much in that British voicing: tight bottom and not a ton treble, but nice chime. If you want a lot of treble (and bass for that matter), a British speaker might not be ideal, but I like the tight bottom cuz it keeps you from getting muddy as well as exchanging chime for treble since it is smoother, which goes along with Trey's use of the TS>Comp.

Obviously Trey does some jazz and funk, so you can hear how his speakers perform with those styles (I think sometimes he turns on the Leslie or Vibe for a little treble on some funky stuff, but I don't pay that much attention to his use of modulation). I feel like I can navigate all styles with the electronics on my guitar and my playing style. Even for funky stuff, Trey keeps his tone really pretty dark - surprisingly so if you try to match it when your amp is quiet, but once you turn up or record, you can see it works and keeps his guitar sounding as smooth.

Also, I don't know anything about your amp, so you have to consider that too.

Thanks Heady! Your posts are lessons unto themselves. I see that the Red Fang is 30w or is that just another power handling option in addition to the 50w? Although I can agree with you all here in saying that Trey's incredible tone has a lot to do with his speakers, I wouldn't mind looking at something that can get me in the ballpark of Trey but also excels at jazz (warmth and mids) and funkier stuff (clear high end definition) Can the Red Fang do that? I've also tried the Cannabis Rex when I had a Traynor YCV40wr which sounded very nice, but that's my only starting point in terms of using other speakers.. Thanks again for your advice and in any case i'd like to try the Red Fang.. I'll PM you! 

My understanding is Jerry used various speakers - and amps - and I am not as versed in his gear, but I would think something classic like an old JBL would be up his alley.

For Trey, you have a few good options that should handle your amp:
Celestion Gold would be fine
Weber 50w Blue Dog would work according to them
Eminence Red Fang is also rated at 50w and I think it would handle it
WGS Blackhawk

You cant go wrong with any of those speakers. They all ought to handle a 45w amp because that type of design (C Gold copies) are generally rated conservatively. I wouldn't worry about the Gold on a 45w amp, Weber says their 50w should also handle 50ws. I never looked into the actual power handling (whether the rating was as conservative as Celestion's rating) for the Blackhawk because I needed their higher (100w) custom option for my Mesa, or the Red Fang, but I know a few people who use the RF on 50 watt amps and I have as well.

However, if you want to be extra safe with power handling, the 75w Weber or WGS 100w Blackhawk (the custom build that I have, which they might, if they haven't yet, start offering in their line of speakers - not the Blackhawk HP!) would be good options. Higher power handling can result in a warmer speaker, however the custom Blackhawk uses the same cone as their lower power handling speaker, just with a 100w voice coil (not sure about what changes between power ratings on the Weber speakers).

Of course, all these speakers are pricey, probably averaging $250 after shipping. They are hard to find used, but you might get lucky, especially since you have multiple resistance (ohm) rating options on the output of your amp. You can also run a 4ohm output into an 8ohm speaker, or an 8ohm output into a 16ohm speaker if need be - it might have a mild effect on tone.

I really loved my Eminence. It has a more aggressive upper midrange than some other options, but has more of a dip right in the center of the midrange (you can see on their frequency plot). I only stopped using it because I needed a higher power handling speaker for my Mesa when using the Simul-Class setting (needed the extra volume from the 2 6L6's).

So now I am using my WGS and I am thrilled with it. Their customer service is also awesome.

Weber's customer service is great too. In fact, both companies are great resources if you have more questions. I preferred my Red Fang over the 50w Ceramic Blue Dog that Weber gave me a while back. However, Weber wasn't clear how well they had broken the speaker in and it was a bit harsh, another 24 hours of break in might have made a big difference, as well as an Alnico magnet.

If you go with the Celestion Gold and can't find a used one, buy through Avatar speakers, great prices!

I do still have my Red Fang and I am not using it. If you wanted to try that out, I would be happy to figure out a price that works for both of us. Also, the Red Fang is the loudest of all of these speakers, rated at 103db (might be rated a little higher than other companies would have rated it) compared to 99 to 100db for the rest of them. Just depends if you want a little extra volume on your amp or or not - I didn't notice much difference compared to my 99.4db WGS, but it was noticeably louder than my EVM12L - probably more of a tonal/perception thing.

Also, Trey used Celestion V30's with his Mesa. It will be more aggressive if you prefer that (I don't know anything about your amp or the toanz your already getting from it). Those are pretty cheap ceramic speakers, they are classic-rock classics, often mixed with Green Backs. If you prefer that route, but want Alnico, I believe both Weber and WGS have that option as well.

Lastly, some people would say it is ridiculous to spend $250 on a speaker, but I think that (the amp in entirety) is one of the most important parts of your tone (more so than guitar and pedals IMO). Despite my tight finances, I think it was worth it to me, but if you just want an upgrade rather than the real deal, there are lots of good options. I love my gear and have been playing out, plus it is the only luxury I spend money on (the rest goes to groceries, beer, rent, my girlfriend and education), so it is worth it to me. The Ceramic Blue Dog is a good option if you want to save $100 on a new speaker though.

Hope this helps get your search started!

[fulltone1989]

Hmm very interesting, I put some KT66's in the Soul-O 45 which gave it more headroom and smoothed out the highs as compared to the 6L6's that were in there earlier. It also increased the wattage a bit, and i'd put it in the 50w range. The Soul-O is a 1x12 45 watt PTP for the most part amp that if I could bet anything it was created as a twin chopped in half with crappier reverb. Gain, Treble, Mid, Bass, Presence, Reverb, and Volume knobs with a parallel fx loop and multi ohm OT. I rarely put any of the controls past 2 o clock on the dial and then use the Presence to adjust overall brightness of the amp - I think it sounds good IMHO. Anyways thats my amp!

I've gotten my hands on a C-Rex from a local player and the shop where I work has a multitude of cabs and 12" I can try out (however a lot of them are greenbacks and V30's) so hopefully over the next week I will have a better idear about what I am looking for!

[Heady Jam Fan]

Nice, so Fendery. I think a few guys here who use Fenders with a tone stack like that keep the mids up high and the bass and treble low or even off. A presence control is really nice too. If you get the volume that low, a 50w speaker should be fine. I suspect something like the C Blue would be in the Trey vein of tone on that amp.

Thats cool it can take KT66's (I guess it is a matter of current draw, 1.3 compared to .9 amps from a 6L6) - is it biased for them or did you need to rebias? I never really spent much time with KT66's, probably have tried them on a Marshal at some point though.

I think it is a good call to take time trying as many speakers as you can though before picking one, not everyone gets that chance. Just keep in mind that speakers will sound harsh if not broken in, and will sound different through different cabs.

[fulltone1989]

Nice, so Fendery. I think a few guys here who use Fenders with a tone stack like that keep the mids up high and the bass and treble low or even off. A presence control is really nice too. If you get the volume that low, a 50w speaker should be fine. I suspect something like the C Blue would be in the Trey vein of tone on that amp.

Thats cool it can take KT66's (I guess it is a matter of current draw, 1.3 compared to .9 amps from a 6L6) - is it biased for them or did you need to rebias? I never really spent much time with KT66's, probably have tried them on a Marshal at some point though.

I think it is a good call to take time trying as many speakers as you can though before picking one, not everyone gets that chance. Just keep in mind that speakers will sound harsh if not broken in, and will sound different through different cabs.

It was rebiased for KT66's, I took it to a tech but the bias took minutes. Groove Tubes made a bias kit especially for these amps that I really want but can't find anywhere. If anyone has one for sale PM me! http://www.samash.com/p/Groove%20Tubes_Amplifer%20Tube%20Bias%20Tool_-49970168