The Jazz Theory Book - Mark Levine

Started by Heady Jam Fan, March 15, 2012, 09:07:30 AM

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I do a lot of this, they call it sideslipping in theory but its a great way to build some tension.

I do it a lot on even more basic levels like minor pentatonic to aeolian natural by implementing the minor 3rd for tension. or half step rises pentatonically for a period of time before returning back to tonic. all aspects of sideslipping

Lydian Dominate and mixolydian are great because both work great of major/minor dominant 7 chords. one being an extreme major and another containing a veryyy minor sound. for sure if you are able to throw these together its a natural way to create tension.

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Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on March 19, 2012, 10:04:12 AM
I was looking at it as weaving in and out of A mixolydian and C# Lydian dominant.

But in the key of A, wouldn't it be E mixo? I'm confused.
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Heady Jam Fan

Quote from: ShockedAndPersuaded on March 18, 2012, 12:56:55 PM
Here's some food for thought. This is something I've been trying to keep on deck when improvising over a dom7/9th jam. It's a pretty simple concept but I thought I'd throw it out there since the Lydian family is being discussed. This idea is based around a half diminished played from the 3rd of the tonic. ie a c# half dim is the same as an A9. In this example I would throw in a C# Lydian dominant scale to play "outside" or create tension. I had this on my mind Friday night at the gig and was partly due to this thread. So thank you stiles and heady for helping jog my memory.

I meant to post earlier - like Tomas seems to be doing, I am wrapping my head around this, but what Shocked is saying (I think) is not that the C#9 is the same as an A9, but that a C# half dim comes from A mixolydian, which is D ionian (thus C# is locrian or half dim). So A9 and C# half dim are the same: A, C#, E, G, B = C#, E, G, B aside from dropping the A from the C# half dim chord.

When considering this in the context of C#9, the only similar note between A mixo / C# half dim and C#7 is the C#, which I think is what Stiles was saying about sideslipping: nearly each note is a half step from the scale the chord implies, which creates a lot of 'outsideness' or tension - A dorian would have no similar notes.

One thing to mention, Shocked puts this in the C# dominant lydian, so the F# from C#7 (the 4) is raised to an F## (double sharp) or G (I suppose enharmonically), which also occurs in the A mixo scale/chord.

So the two scales:
A Mixo:          A B C# D   E   F#   G   A
C#dom lydian:      C# D# E# F## G# A# B# C# EDIT: per Shocked's correction below, B# is lydian, Bnat is dominant, should be B rather than B#, I guess you can write out F and G rather than E# and F##, respectively

*I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation/understanding
**Also I think C# Dominant Lydian is the 4th mode of G# Melodic Minor Ascending.
***Aslo, as Stiles mentions, A Mixo over C#7 would sound VERY minor.
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Heady you are right on track with everything.  Sorry I didn't go in to more detail at the time of my post.  I was posting from my phone.  There is one correction. The C# Lydian Dominant is C# D# F G G# A# B C#. 

After going back to my guitar and playing around with this concept I realized you could also use a Diminished Whole Tone scale starting from the C# to get some outside tones and create tension.  This seemes to sound a little more "acceptable" than the Lydian Dominant from C#.   

Sticking with the same example you could also play a Lydian Dominant scale starting from the tri tone sub of A. 

I hope I'm not confusing anyone too much with some of these suggestions.  It's been a while for me on the theory end of things and I confuse myself a lot.  I've been trying to get back in to it and kicking around ideas such as these with like minded folks is something I don't get to do often.  Unfortunately for me I understand more on paper than I do my instrument.  Shit seems to get lost in translation from my brain to my hands.
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Heady Jam Fan

Lol, I know what you mean about lost in translation! As I read and post (mostly read), I often cover more than I can play and I have been really struggling to find time to pick up my guitar, putting in at least 9 hours a day and more often from wake till sleep lately.

So the difference between the scale I had posted and the one you just posted is the B natural (E# is F, F## is G). And clearly, my mistake, as the B# would be lydian, the B natural makes it dominant. So I should clarify with the correction on comparing the scales, the lydian dominant would share the C#, G and B with the A Mixo.

When I was thinking about this application at first, I was thinking about diminished and whole tone options or even a split scale, starting with a diminished pattern and ending in whole tone (kinda weird, probably has another name that I am not recognizing). I forget the notes of the scale I had in mind right now, but it had the G and G#.

I really appreciate your posts, Shocked! That is exactly what I was looking/asking for when I posted the book - for people to recognize applicable stuff, as that is sometimes difficult from sort of 'textbook' reading, and the let others figure it out. While it took some discussion, I think that is very worthwhile as it leaves others with some cools ways to get outside the box (particularly the tempting pentatonic one, which should be the first goal - get beyond those 5). I don't think you wrote it in a confusing way, it is just that there will always be a wide range of ability to understand theory in any forum - someone like Stiles knew exactly what you meant, while I had to take some time to figure it out / makes sure I understood it. I am happy to put my brain to work and try to write it out in a way that I find more tangible, hopefully that will translate to most people who might not understand initially. If you wanna write it in the 'dummy' version ;) by all means, but it was also cool to piece together.
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Good job guys. I'm barely checking in lately due to my new job but reading it as I can. Love it.
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