Master Volume vs Channel Volume

[webephishin]

I got an old silverface Twin Reverb, i think early to mid 70s...  I get some real hot highs that can be pretty peircing to the ears at times.  Not sure if it's my guitar or what (I play a schecter csh1 with duncan designed pickups).  Anyways, since I first started playing with the amp, I plug into the 1 input on the vibrato/reverb channel.  It wasnt until a couple days ago I realized that these thin, almost tinny, hot highs might be due to my master volume being so low.  Besides the highs, sometimes my low's get a little muddy when i'm playing on my neck pickup.  I keep my master around 4 and my channel volume around 7-8.  Can you generally get a better tone if the master is turned up more while the channel volume is lower? Have any of you guys had the same problem?  After playing on tube amps for only about a year I still consider myself a noob when it comes tone.  Any help appreciated thanks.

[the_great_lemon]

I don't have too much experience with Twins but the times I've played them I've had the same problem.  To many piercing highs, not enough fat mids.  I know a few guys on here have SF twins so they should be able to help. Good Luck!!

[fulltone1989]

If your Twin has a MV then I think it's a 76 or after, and definitely Ultra Linear and designed to be clean. I think the MV Fender put on those amps was supposed to be "Hey look Marshall we have those too!" I tried one and it didn't work to well for me for similar reasons that you've stated. Are you trying to get dirty tones out of the twin?

I got an old silverface Twin Reverb, i think early to mid 70s...  I get some real hot highs that can be pretty peircing to the ears at times.  Not sure if it's my guitar or what (I play a schecter csh1 with duncan designed pickups).  Anyways, since I first started playing with the amp, I plug into the 1 input on the vibrato/reverb channel.  It wasnt until a couple days ago I realized that these thin, almost tinny, hot highs might be due to my master volume being so low.  Besides the highs, sometimes my low's get a little muddy when i'm playing on my neck pickup.  I keep my master around 4 and my channel volume around 7-8.  Can you generally get a better tone if the master is turned up more while the channel volume is lower? Have any of you guys had the same problem?  After playing on tube amps for only about a year I still consider myself a noob when it comes tone.  Any help appreciated thanks.

[ColForbin]

If your Twin has a MV then I think it's a 76 or after, and definitely Ultra Linear and designed to be clean. I think the MV Fender put on those amps was supposed to be "Hey look Marshall we have those too!" I tried one and it didn't work to well for me for similar reasons that you've stated. Are you trying to get dirty tones out of the twin?

Not entirely accurate fulltone.  Mine is a 1973 (early) and has a non push/pull master volume control, and it is not ultra linear, but it is definitely designed to be clean.  1972 was the first year (late)for the master volume.  To get the best tone out of your twin, your mv really need to be all the way up to 10 and adjust the volume on the channel normally.  The problem is, this will result in a super loud amp that sounds awesome.  Mine is great for gigging situations, but not so much at home.  I use my mv to have manageable volumes at home, but out playing, it goes to 10 w/ my channel volume on 4ish.

If natural tube overdrive is your bag, this amp is not for you.  That's the way I feel about it anyway.

webephishin, is your master volume push/pull or non-push pull?

Here is a good rundown from wiki:

In 1968 the Fender amplifier line switched from the original black faceplate to a new brushed aluminum faceplate with light blue labels (except the Bronco, which has red) and changed the color of the grillcloth from silver grey to silver with sparkling blue threads embedded within it, ushering in the Silverface era. Other blackface cosmetic features were retained. The first silverface Twins used the blackface AB763 circuit until May 1968, when Fender switched to the AC568. Since the tube complement was the same, Fender just used up their stock of printed tube charts saying AB763 until they ran out. Thus many silverface amps are mislabeled and this has created some confusion, causing some owners to think they have AB763 circuits when in fact they are AC568s.
The Twin Reverb, along with all other silverface models, had an aluminum frame (trim) surrounding the sparkling blue grillcloth from late 1967 to 1969. Early silverface amplifiers made between 1967 and 1968 had black lines on the brushed aluminum control plate, still retaining the '60s "tailed" design. This feature was offered on models produced prior to the "tailless" period in 1973. Some later models came with an unusual silver grillcloth with sparkling orange threads ("orange sparkle").
The rating of the amplifier's output power was also upgraded to 100 watts. Fender factory schematics show slightly higher voltage on the output tube plates when compared to the older AB763 circuit. Some say that this accounts for the higher output power. The power transformer part numbers for the AB763 and the later circuit designs are identical, being part number 022756 (125P34A); the specification of that part number did not change. The transformer output is rated at 640vCT at 450ma when its primary receives a 117v input. Other parts of the power supply are essentially the same, so some mystery surrounds the increase in power. One possible answer is voltage delivered to the amplifier from the wall plug. In North America, wall outlet power is considered to be 117V nominal, plus or minus 10 percent. Fender may have originally rated the amplifiers when plugged into the voltage available at their factory, which may have been as low as 105V. Maximum operating voltage would be about 127V. CBS might have decided to rate the amplifier's power at maximum input voltage, thus gaining an "upgrade" with no change, and at no cost whatsoever.
From about 1973 forward, a master volume with pull-boost (on a push-pull control) became a standard feature on all dual-channel silverfaced Fender models (usually known as "master volume" amps). Original master volume amps from late 1972 were made for a short time without that "pull boost" circuit on the master volume control. Between 1977-1982 the power was increased to 135 watts. This increase was partly due to the output section being changed to the ultralinear topology, as different power transformer and power supply design resulted in much higher plate voltages. During that period CBS updated the "tailless" Fender amp logo with a new "Made in USA" script placed on the bottom side and replaced the sparkling blue grillcloth with a new silver grey grill with sparkling orange threads.
During the 1970s and to a point, the late 1960s, the American amplifier companies were all engaged in an undeclared "wattage war". Each manufacturer would rate and or produce amplifiers of increased power as a means of gaining market superiority (or the illusion thereof). American amplifier companies used a philosophy of bright clean tones and the elimination of distortion was a key design factor. Another problem facing the tube amplifiers of the day was the costly need to match the output tubes for proper balance of the circuit. Fender approached this problem with a modified output tube bias control which achieved balance at the expense of overall bias level. Between 1968 and 1973 other circuit features were used to achieve a sort of self balancing of the output, namely a combination of grid and cathode bias. All of these features were frowned upon by the musicians of that time, who generally preferred the more edgy tones of the original blackfaced amplifiers.

[webephishin]

If your Twin has a MV then I think it's a 76 or after, and definitely Ultra Linear and designed to be clean. I think the MV Fender put on those amps was supposed to be "Hey look Marshall we have those too!" I tried one and it didn't work to well for me for similar reasons that you've stated. Are you trying to get dirty tones out of the twin?

[/quote]


I'm not trying to get too dirty of tones, mostly trey-esque tones. So i'd say I go for the same amount of dirtiness as trey    haha

[webephishin]

If your Twin has a MV then I think it's a 76 or after, and definitely Ultra Linear and designed to be clean. I think the MV Fender put on those amps was supposed to be "Hey look Marshall we have those too!" I tried one and it didn't work to well for me for similar reasons that you've stated. Are you trying to get dirty tones out of the twin?

Not entirely accurate fulltone.  Mine is a 1973 (early) and has a non push/pull master volume control, and it is not ultra linear, but it is definitely designed to be clean.  1972 was the first year (late)for the master volume.  To get the best tone out of your twin, your mv really need to be all the way up to 10 and adjust the volume on the channel normally.  The problem is, this will result in a super loud amp that sounds awesome.  Mine is great for gigging situations, but not so much at home.  I use my mv to have manageable volumes at home, but out playing, it goes to 10 w/ my channel volume on 4ish.

If natural tube overdrive is your bag, this amp is not for you.  That's the way I feel about it anyway.

webephishin, is your master volume push/pull or non-push pull?

My MV is non-push pull...its just a regular dial that moves left n right.  Maybe I should look into getting a new amp...what would you guys suggest?  I'd prefer an amp with at least 2 12's....but i'm definatley open to your guys's advice- it's always good.  Maybe a mesa-boogie? or a DR? 

[fulltone1989]

Hehe Trey is a dirty man when it comes to guitar tones. Regardless, a Twin is a great amp. If it doesn't have a push pull then I don't think it's Ultra Linear and should have pretty similar specs to the early SF Twins. Maybe try pulling the outer two Power Tubes to half the power and get the sweet spot at lower volume?

[sour d]

I run mine with the volume all the way up and use the master volume to set the volume level. Kinda the opposite of ColForbin.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Hehe Trey is a dirty man when it comes to guitar tones. Regardless, a Twin is a great amp. If it doesn't have a push pull then I don't think it's Ultra Linear and should have pretty similar specs to the early SF Twins. Maybe try pulling the outer two Power Tubes to half the power and get the sweet spot at lower volume?

Pulling two power tubes helps (either the two middle or two outer), but only a few db. I believe this also changes the impedance, making the two remaining tubes work harder - my understanding is this can be corrected by only using one speaker, but not sure about that. On the other hand, if your only using two tubes, you have to left over as replacements. I've also heard of people running the extension output to a dummy load / attenuator, which takes off a few more dbs and might have less tonal effect than running an attenuator between the speak out and the speaker (I don't think using an attenuator would be worth it personally).

Have you tried just running the treble and bass much lower? Or running the bass lower and rolling back your guitar's tone knob? What speaker are you using - a darker, more midrangy (and possibly less efficient) speaker might do the trick?

One thing I feel about Fender's is that they are very good at doing what they do, but they are not chimera amps that sound good no matter where the knobs are. Sounds like an awesome amp though and it would be sweet if you could get it to work for you, but at some point, you might be pushing it toward something its not, then other options might be worth considering, such as an SF Deluxe or Mesa Boogie.

[cactuskeeb]

Fender Twins are supposed to be loud and bright. The Silverface variety is going to be super clean and hard on the ears on the treble end of things. SRV used to lay his Twin flat on its back so that his audience in the front row(s) wouldn't have their ears assaulted by piercing highs.

I would see how things change, if at all, after you turn the treble and bass all the way down.

[picture_of_nectar]

this has some good info on Twin Mods.

http://fenderguru.com/amps/twin-reverb

[Happyorange27]

this has some good info on Twin Mods.

http://fenderguru.com/amps/twin-reverb

Yeah i love that site.

[cactuskeeb]

this has some good info on Twin Mods.

http://fenderguru.com/amps/twin-reverb

Yeah i love that site.

Indeed a cool site, especially regarding the initial paragraph on each amp, which really gives a good sense of how they differ in the fundamental sense. Other than that, though, the descriptions of mods that follow the first paragraph are virtually the same from one amp page to the next, which is kind of lame. These are minor modifications as well, and you would need to perform several at once to achieve any significant difference in tone.

[webephishin]

Thanks for the input, guys.  After playing on the Twin for a year i'm starting to realize there is a different tone out there (more mid-range, less bright high end) that I'm lookin for.  I tried doing some research but couldn't get a good enough answer for my liking, so i figured i'd ask you guys...Is there much of a difference between the Hot Rod Deluxe and the Hot Rod Deville?  The other guitarist in the band plays a Deville 410 but he's had a lot of problems with it which leads me to not really wanting the DeVille.  Since he's playin a 410, he tends to play pretty loud, so I'm not so sure if a Deluxe Reverb (1 12") will do justice, so I'm lookin to replace my twin with another 212.  What do the experts think?! 

[the_great_lemon]

Have you thought about a head and cab option? I've been drooling over the old Fender Bandmaster's that routinely go for between 600-900 depending on year and condition.  Running one of those into a 2x12 cab is an option.

You could always run a Deluxe Reverb into a 1x12 extension cab to get the 2x12 setup you're looking for.