Trey Signature versions of Ted Dunbar books.?.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Trey Signature Dunbar Books - is that something you might be interested in?

Both here and on TGP, people have been enjoying the Ted Dunbar materials that are available, but also looking for more - and the consensus is people are happy to pay for it. Obviously the pinnacle of his work could be consider Tonal Convergence, but the book is out of production/publication and is a bit rough; using a plethora of synonymous terms and symbols, etc. In a TGP thread focused on finding some of the other books that are missing from the PDF collection we have all seen, a member who I have talked with often, Groothe, suggested getting the Big-Red-Guy involved after the inconsistencies (roughness) in the current version are smoothed out.

We were thinking it would be great if Trey would be willing to contribute his thoughts/conceptualizations regarding each scale and applicable examples from his songs (if he doesn't have a great example, maybe toss something together). This part could be in the form of audio files of some sort that are only accessible with the purchase of the book (hardcopy or PDF), which would decrease the likelihood of piracy of the book itself.

I think this would sell like blotter on Shakedown Street, so I am wondering 1) if people here would buy this if it came out 2) any other ideas/suggestions 3) if you do think it is a good idea, how to get the idea in front of Big-Red.

[Walker done done]

Yes, and I'm going to Beantown tomorrow, I'll chat him up about it.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Awesome

[dabomb]

I looked at Tonal convergence and, tell me if I'm wrong, but it's just a bunch of scales that create tension along with excessive explanation as to why they do.

Any scale containing a 7th builts off the 5th of the key you're in will work, yes? Example:

Tonal center = C

Tritone of C = F#

So, tension can be created with a scale built off the 5th of C (G) that contains the 7th (f#), the Tritone of C.

[dabomb]

Sorry for replying to myself....

I just looped a C major vamp and played in G major for tension. While I could hear tension on the 7th with the F#, I kept accidentally resolving due to the C also in the scale.

Did I bombard the key center? Not really.

Again, is this the kinda stuff Dunbar is talking about? Also, is this the Helping Friendly book perhaps?

[Happyorange27]

I would be interested and would buy it.  If you got Trey to contribute anything, it would be amazing. 

I wonder if Trey ever stumbles across this forum.  I'm sure he is aware it exists.

I would tell you that we are a small and rare breed.  Tom from Black Cat really wants the BCV to take off and was hoping all of the Trey fans would swallow them up.  Granted their has been an initial rush of the first pedals, but then there has be a drop off in people requesting them.  I'm trying to help him build some momentum but not every Phan is a super gear and theory junkie like you and me.  I'm just letting you know the audience is a bit limited but I don't want you to stop being ambitious because I want what you are offering.  I could be way off too.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Dabomb:

I think your right to some degree, the scales are focused on creating tension - and the explanation may be excessive for some of the more obvious scales he uses or for people who grasp this more easily, but I would gladly read more of his thoughts if he had felt motivated to include it.

I think your focus on the (or a) tritone is important, but he seems to describe the tritone in relation to the V7 rather than the I. The V7 has a tritone between the 3 and b7 interval; in the key of C (your example), that would be B-F - in the most basic scenario highlighting the C mixolydian mode (he writes in the key of F, thus referring to the E-Bb tritone on a regular basis). I would argue that Dunbar also built a lot of these scales with the V7b9 in mind, utilizing the tension of the 5 to b9 tritone interval; G-Db. However, he changes notes around these tritones that have leading or resolving tendencies to the I chord, which results in a wide array of chord sounds for his scales other than the typical V7 (C7 in F). However, your example adds the tritone to the chord you wish to resolve to giving you C lydian (Gmaj) when you start in the key of C. And it sounds like your vamp was just a Cmaj chord? So I wouldn't expect a feeling of bombardment or much tension in that situation; you still have the CEG notes and every time you play them over a C chord, your portraying a sense of home, resolution, consonance to the listener - what ever chord you play over, the scale will tend to sound more related to that tonal center, so if your using this scale over C (I) rather than G (V), you are playing C lydian rather than G maj. While you could use C lydian and intentionally avoid CEG, you'll notice many of Dunbar's scales (particularly the more dissonant ones) don't contain the notes of the I chord, but rather many notes a half step or a step away. While Dunbar does not describe it this way, it is similar to the idea of side-stepping; purposefully using notes a short interval from resolution tones (I chord tones) while playing over a V7 to create gravity toward the I chord. In other words, practice on this should be over at least a I or i and V7 chord using the major or minor scale of the key (respectively) over the I or i chord and mixolydian or something more tense over the V7 chord (obviously mixolydian is the same set of notes as the major scale). I already gave the example of adding a b9, which implies the mixolydian b9; from the key of F, c mixo b9 is C Db E F G A Bb C. You will find both the mixo and mixo b9 early on deriving scales using Lydian Chromatic Concept, as well as mixo +4, mixo b9 +9, lydian b9 +9 +6, phrygian b4, mixo b9 +9 +4 (not sure if the modal names are the best to describe these scales, Russel would not have called them this, but you can see how they are focused on the V7 chord).

Happy:

You might be right, it just seems that a lot of jam and jazz heads are always looking for an talking about this book more than any other theory book and even non-phish heads appreciate Trey, so I figured, as far as theory books, it would be highly desired. I just wanted to get the awareness of the idea out there and see if anything happens with it.

[cactuskeeb]

I wonder if Trey ever stumbles across this forum.  I'm sure he is aware it exists.

I'm willing to bet anything and everything he's entirely unaware of the existence of this forum.

[dabomb]

thanks SO much for the detailed response on this.

When you say "over the V7" you are talking about ONLY the segment of the chord progression that would be called the V7?

example: farmhouse solo
c g am f

So I would look to play one of these tension creating scales over the g part?

...or do we look at the progression as a whole, and play a tension creating scale with a root on the G over the entire progression?

Thanks and more thanks

[Heady Jam Fan]

I would say the book is focused on what to play over a V7 chord or some sort of substituted chord that serves the same purpose - like the list of chords Dunbar includes that match the scale-sound. I can't recall, but I would bet all or most of those chords still have the same tritone interval as the V7. That also doesn't mean the scale won't work over other chords, but I don't think Dunbar intended for the book to have that breadth, but a more narrow and deep approach instead.

So yea, I would say it is mostly focused on playing over a G when in the key of C, such as Farmhouse, however, the intention is creating tension that leads back to the I (or i) chord, so have a vi and iv after the V7 means the resolution won't be as powerful. Although a vi is essentially an inversion of a I and a iv is an inversion of a ii, so you could even view Farmhouse as a ii vi V7 I. But I'm diverging now.

[dabomb]

Right....and farmhouse is a dumb example as it isn't a song that you'd want to hear significant tension

Sooooo...if you're still game....let's go to Antelope.

Jam Em - D

Id call this a ii - I, and solo e Dorian. Now, could I take the V of the I (A), and use these tension scales? or do they only work over a V7 which this progression lacks?

[Heady Jam Fan]

I'm always game for analyzing music!

I would agree that Farmhouse is not the most dissonant, though it doesn't mean Dunbar's scales don't apply, its just the epitome of tension and release going 'outside' on a V7 chord just preceding a I chord. I also think that Dunbar's scales have a lot of applicability in other situations (maybe someone else can jump in, or maybe this is where having someone like Trey's input would be awesome), it just seems that is the focus of the book as it is about bombarding the I chord and I haven't tried applying them elsewhere to be honest - I have a ton to learn from that book still and I am kind of putting it on hold for a bit.

For Em D, you could consider it a ii-I or you could consider the Em to be a i chord (either related to the dorian mode and the D being ionian, or the aeolian mode and D being mixolydian). You could also consider substitutions (I am going to go in the opposite direction here that Pat Martino would according to his book, Linear Expressions), the most basic might be thinking of the Em as a G (in jazz each chord is 4 notes, Em is Em7 with E G B D, which is a G6), then you have a I V7 chord progression (G-D7). Either way, D7 has D F# A C, containing an F#-C tritone which can resolve into either Em or G; F# can resolve to G in either the Em or G chord, or E in the Em chord, and C resolves to B in either chord or D in the G chord. Although, I would have to have my guitar and/or listen to the tune to see if I would want to treat the D as a I or a V7 - ultimately I would say it depends how you hear it.

On that note, I just looked at a lead line from the beginning of a live version of that jam. There are a lot of chromatic notes, or at least chromatic passing tones, but it appears that he avoids resting on chord tones, there were a lot of Cs and Bbs for example (avoiding, but temping the resolution to B, the 5th interval of Em), which is kind of like side-stepping, playing a half-step from chord tones. By avoid the chord tones in the Em chord, he avoids 'release' and continues creating tension.

I found Lydian Chromatic Concept to be much easier to apply once you figure out how to use the chord-scale chart. Using the chart, you can derive progressively more dissonant or tense scales for any chord. While Dunbar's focus in Tonal Convergence was narrow and deep, it can be applied more widely I am certain, I just haven't got there to speak on it, which seems to be what your interested in. On the other hand Russel's LCC book is broad, allowing you to apply it in many situations as you want and to take it deeper on your own. If I were you, I would take a progression with a few chords, like Farmhouse, and write out all the scales you can derive from LCC for each chord, then compare the scales across chords and to the scales from Dunbar's book for the V7 chord. Some of the scales from LCC will be the same or close to Dunbar's scale for the V7 chord and some scales across chords will be the same or similar, then you get an idea of how you can play similar notes across a few chords and see if some of Dunbar's tense scales might work for you over various chords. I know its tedious, but sometimes when I am bored at work I will fill a page or two with scales/chords even though I don't have a guitar in with me; last week I went through scales and chord substitutions for the solo section of the jazz tune Paper Moon, which has some nice chromatic movement built in (I remember soloing on it with a jazz band I played with when I was 15 or 16 and I just played arpeggio's because I didn't know where to start otherwise, lol). [EDIT - oh yea, forgot to mention, when you start deriving scales and comparing the notes you can use, or comparing the notes across Dunbar's scales, you will notice that between two scales, all twelve notes are sometimes covered! Kinda makes it feel futile; any note can work pretty much anywhere.]

[Stecks]

I actually emailed Ted Dunbar in 2000 looking for some of his stuff (google and amazon weren't so robust back then), not knowing he died in 1998.  His widow emailed me back saying he passed away about a year and a half ago.  I felt like a huge ass.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Yea, not your fault, but I assume she had a number of similar emails.

I think I did the same thing with Weber some years back. His son replied, but didn't mention his father's passing (I think I knew by the time he replied).