Anyone a good jazz player?

[Stiles12]

I do agree with you wilson that this kind of stuff wont advance you very quickly and wont teach you a whole lot by learning arpegios through playing tunes. But, If you are new to arpeggios, playing arpeggios over songs you know can at least allow you to here the arpegios in application. It will also allow you to play a song which is obviously a whole lot more interesting then working on shapes of arpeggios.

If you already have a decent grasp on this kind of stuff, like wilson said, wont get you to far and wont help you use arpeggios in an improv setting. when you learn this way you will only be able to play arpeggios when the same chord changes with the same tempo comes at you during a song.

Its a good way to get your hands moving, not a great way to learn.

[Jkendrick]

Thanks so much. That totally makes sense. I have learned arpeggios in composed pieces like What's New In Baltimore and written things using them, but they never find their way into my improv other than as "bag of tricks" type licks. So it makes sense that doing the All The Things You Are study would be more of the same. I have been told that if you want to learn a concept, write something utilizing that concept. I've done that (and I believe Trey did that a lot with his earlier compositions), but I still struggle to apply the concepts in improv. I think what you're both saying is to take a step back and think of the triad as target notes and then expand from there. I'll just jump in to the practice techniques outlined above and plug away.

So is this what you mean by practicing triads in two and three string sets?

Code Select Expand

e----------------------------
B----------------------------
G----------------------------
D-------------------------5--
A---7-10----------10----7----
E--8---------8-12-----8------

[IamWILSON]

Thanks so much. That totally makes sense. I have learned arpeggios in composed pieces like What's New In Baltimore and written things using them, but they never find their way into my improv other than as "bag of tricks" type licks. So it makes sense that doing the All The Things You Are study would be more of the same. I have been told that if you want to learn a concept, write something utilizing that concept. I've done that (and I believe Trey did that a lot with his earlier compositions), but I still struggle to apply the concepts in improv. I think what you're both saying is to take a step back and think of the triad as target notes and then expand from there. I'll just jump in to the practice techniques outlined above and plug away.

So is this what you mean by practicing triads in two and three string sets?

Code Select Expand

e----------------------------
B----------------------------
G----------------------------
D-------------------------5--
A---7-10----------10----7----
E--8---------8-12-----8------

Exactly!  It gets alot deeper than that though.  So those are C major root position....

Can also translate it to C maj 1st inversion (3rd in bass)
--------------------8--
-----------------1--8--
----------10----0---9--
---10----10----2------
---10----12------------
---12--------------------

and 2nd inversion (5th in bass)

---0----------------------
---1----5--------------
---0----5----9------------
--------5----10-----2----
--------------10----3----
---------------------3-----

or for quick example of 2 string sets (still need to translate them to all the other strings sets though)
1st inv                 2nd inv
------------------------------
--------------------------------
----------------------------------
---------------------------------
-------15-----------3-----7----
12----15-----------3------------  

What you will realize is that to master all of these in every key and every chord quality (maj, min, dim, aug) will take lots of study and very thorough learning of the fretboard.  I believe it's alot easier to master improvising on a horn or piano where there is only one of every note instead of the guitar where there are not only multiples of the same note, but the difference in intervals from the G to B string (compared to the rest) so what looks like a consistent pattern over the low strings changes once you jump to the high strings.  

I suggest to use the circle of 4ths (or 5ths), to practice playing these in every key.  Start in C, then on to F, Bb, Eb, and so on..... Why do it in 4ths?  Because jazz music moves in lots of 4ths.  And if you have that circle of 4ths memorized, it makes learning a tune alot simpler when you don't have to memorize chord progressions.  Just look at the first 5 measures of All the Things You Are.  It's just cycling in 4ths in the Key of Ab.

vi  -  ii  -  V  -  I  -  IV, then 2 bars of C maj   V   -   I
Fm   Bb    Eb   Ab   Db                                G       C

then it goes and does the same thing in the Key of Eb along with the same modulation up a major 3rd to the Key of G (all be it with a ii  V  I, which really is just the same as a V I when you get down to it all, just a little more movement.  

Circle of 4ths.... learn it. live it. love it.

[Jkendrick]

Nice. Thanks. I just spent an hour playing root position major triads in C. I set the metronome at 120 and just kept going C E G on a single string, all six strings. Then two and three string sets as I outlined above. Over and over for the hour. Oh and I sang the note out loud, which I think helps. It felt very rudimentary, but I will try to do this every day. My plan is to do a different key tomorrow (circle of 4ths makes sense as a way to go). Then when I get back around to C, do the 1st inversions. Then the 2nd inversions. Then move to minor triads. Same cycle and then move to dim triads. Then aug triads. Sounds incredibly tedious, but I think it's needed. Ha! Does that sound like a good plan?

[IamWILSON]

"Incredibly tedious" is exactly what it should be.  You have a good plan, but I don't know if you should skip to the next key each day.  When my teacher had me do this, he gave me a regimen where I would do all the major, min, dim, and aug in the key of C for a whole week (all inversions included).  Then the key of F, and so on.  After about 6 weeks most of the shapes were etched into my memory, and I continued working through the rest of the keys week by week.  After all that, I started doing them all again, and was impressed by how much better I was at doing them, but still knew I could get it better, and did manage to learn them even better the second time around.  If you have enough daily time for practice, I really would suggest mixing in all the inversions and practicing more at one time, as then you will become a master of each key in about a weeks time.  The hard part is just the first couple of days in getting through the entire routine and figuring them all out.  After that, you coast and realize that your triad practice for each day ends up only being about 15 minutes once you are comfortable with it all!  That is great that you are using a metronome and singing the note names! But if you are making any mistakes at all, then you need to go slower.  And when you play the triads across 3 strings, play them as chords instead of note-to-note, and you should be able to move from triad to triad on EVERY BEAT!  So I don't think 120bpm would be very easy, try it at 60bpm or slower if you need to.  Remember, if you can't get to your next chord shape in a split second, how are you going to be able to improvise when the chord you needed to play over just passed while you were looking for the triad?  That is how you will master each key.

[Jkendrick]

"Incredibly tedious" is exactly what it should be.  You have a good plan, but I don't know if you should skip to the next key each day.  When my teacher had me do this, he gave me a regimen where I would do all the major, min, dim, and aug in the key of C for a whole week (all inversions included).  Then the key of F, and so on.  After about 6 weeks most of the shapes were etched into my memory, and I continued working through the rest of the keys week by week.  After all that, I started doing them all again, and was impressed by how much better I was at doing them, but still knew I could get it better, and did manage to learn them even better the second time around.  If you have enough daily time for practice, I really would suggest mixing in all the inversions and practicing more at one time, as then you will become a master of each key in about a weeks time.  The hard part is just the first couple of days in getting through the entire routine and figuring them all out.  After that, you coast and realize that your triad practice for each day ends up only being about 15 minutes once you are comfortable with it all!  That is great that you are using a metronome and singing the note names! But if you are making any mistakes at all, then you need to go slower.  And when you play the triads across 3 strings, play them as chords instead of note-to-note, and you should be able to move from triad to triad on EVERY BEAT!  So I don't think 120bpm would be very easy, try it at 60bpm or slower if you need to.  Remember, if you can't get to your next chord shape in a split second, how are you going to be able to improvise when the chord you needed to play over just passed while you were looking for the triad?  That is how you will master each key.

I actually started at 60bpm but ended up doing two notes per beat. I made a couple of mistakes but I didn't have too much trouble at that speed. And yes, I did move from triad to triad on beat. I'm a stay at home dad and generally end up with an hour or less for practice while the boys nap.  In that time I think I could do either inversions or all four triad types, but not both. Perhaps I could do each on alternate days?

[IamWILSON]

"Incredibly tedious" is exactly what it should be.  You have a good plan, but I don't know if you should skip to the next key each day.  When my teacher had me do this, he gave me a regimen where I would do all the major, min, dim, and aug in the key of C for a whole week (all inversions included).  Then the key of F, and so on.  After about 6 weeks most of the shapes were etched into my memory, and I continued working through the rest of the keys week by week.  After all that, I started doing them all again, and was impressed by how much better I was at doing them, but still knew I could get it better, and did manage to learn them even better the second time around.  If you have enough daily time for practice, I really would suggest mixing in all the inversions and practicing more at one time, as then you will become a master of each key in about a weeks time.  The hard part is just the first couple of days in getting through the entire routine and figuring them all out.  After that, you coast and realize that your triad practice for each day ends up only being about 15 minutes once you are comfortable with it all!  That is great that you are using a metronome and singing the note names! But if you are making any mistakes at all, then you need to go slower.  And when you play the triads across 3 strings, play them as chords instead of note-to-note, and you should be able to move from triad to triad on EVERY BEAT!  So I don't think 120bpm would be very easy, try it at 60bpm or slower if you need to.  Remember, if you can't get to your next chord shape in a split second, how are you going to be able to improvise when the chord you needed to play over just passed while you were looking for the triad?  That is how you will master each key.

I actually started at 60bpm but ended up doing two notes per beat. I made a couple of mistakes but I didn't have too much trouble at that speed. And yes, I did move from triad to triad on beat. I'm a stay at home dad and generally end up with an hour or less for practice while the boys nap.  In that time I think I could do either inversions or all four triad types, but not both. Perhaps I could do each on alternate days?

I'd say to go for the inversions first.  After a week's time doing all the inversions in C maj, then do C min for a week, then C dim, and finally C Aug (which are actually really easy by the way).  After you get those all down in C, you might just find that you can handle a little more as you get to different keys.  There will always be some road bumps in certain keys.  The cool thing, is you will not only be learning how to play these triads, but spelling them all out will become so easy in any key.  Also, I forgot to mention, when you are looking for the inversions of the chords, find them all by the bass notes, and not by where the "C's" are.... So when doing 1st inv C maj, be looking for "E" on each string and make your shape accordingly.  And then find the "G's" for 2nd inv.

Good luck!

[Heady Jam Fan]

I have a few books in PDF that I might be able to share via email attachment.

One that visually displays the triad arpeggios is Dunbar's The Interrelationship of Chords, Scales and Fingerboard of Each One of The Twelve Tonalities of The Guitar. Obviously the 4-note chords are more ideal.

I also have Levine's Jazz Theory Book - huge book of theory, all the foundations and more. I can't remember what Martino covers in Linear Expressions, but I remember liking it.

[Jkendrick]

I'd love to get that Dunbar book. The Martino one too. I have the Levine book. I also dug up some old books I have to see if there was anything that would help with my arpeggio endeavor.  One I have but never went through is Fretboard Logic Vol. 3. But I don't think that is for me as it is the CAGED method. And it seems that would be counter to what I'm doing.  In other words,  it would provide more patterns on the fretboard rather than allowing me to see the stacks of intervals. But I could be wrong as I've never really dug into the CAGED method before. For now I think I've got the exercises Wilson spelled out to keep me busy. I'll PM you my email.

[Jkendrick]

So is this what you mean by practicing triads in two and three string sets?

Code Select Expand

e----------------------------
B----------------------------
G----------------------------
D-------------------------5--
A---7-10----------10----7----
E--8---------8-12-----8------

So if the above is the C major triad, does the 1st inversion have fewer realistic positions?

Code Select Expand

e----------------------------
B----------------------------
G----------------------------
D----------------------------10--
A------------------15-----10---
E-----------12-15------12-----

With only one position for the two string sets and one position for the three string sets?

[IamWILSON]

Yes Kendrick, you are totally on the path!