I contend that the following is true regarding Trey this round of tours:
1. His guitar tone is overbearing in its squealing-ness. It doesn't sound like a whale communicating with other whales...it's just squealing all the time, just like the shredders do when they're not thinking about the song/music, but rather how many tricks they can pull out of their bag in the next two and a half measures.
2. He has taken Mike's 'too many notes' critique to a whole new level; playing more notes than he ever did, especially on the last leg of the tour -- e.g., the Gorge. Watch the youtube videos of this show, if you weren't there, and try to tell me he isn't a) playing scales exclusively, never stepping outside his comfort zone and not even venturing into interesting chromatic or atonal (non-melodic) phrasing; and b) drowning out the rest of the band with the shear powered headroom that the new sound system gives him.
He hasnt lost his edge. I think hes experimenting with lots of unfamiliar gear. Every show he has a different rig. Give him some more time, and I bet hell start experimenting more. I can vouch for the Knoxville show, he wasnt drowning anybody out.
I can say that I listen to the Knoxville show a lot, and I don't think he's overbearing or playing too many notes. But I can't speak for the gorge, as I haven't heard it. From the shows I have listened to on this tour, he sounds great to my ears.
Ok, I'm gonna say it... My sister turned me on to phish in 1990 and I've been hitting shows/tours ever since. I feel the same way as cactuskeeb on this one and it kinda hurts to admit that my six string hero is sounding sub par. If you listen to any of the recent shows and a mistake is made, 9 times out of ten it was big red. As far as him getting used to a new rig, he should be able to show up with a line6 amp and a squier strat and still blow my mind. Maybe "sober trey" needs to relax and have a couple beers and sample some lot headies. That my friends is probably the magic that is missing.
I respectfully disagree as well. I'll respond in reverse order: I don't think he's hitting too many notes at all. In fact, I think he hit far many more notes earlier in his career when it came to jams and such. I liken his playing back then to a dude who just blew through a bunch of chalk dust and then went out to tear ass on stage (not saying he did such back then, but simply using an analogy). His playing was fast, furious, and note-bound a plenty. He was younger, faster, had more ideas instantly popping up and his synapses could certainly fire far faster than today, as is probably the case with all of us after a certain point in life. But no, I don't hearhim playing too many notes or over-playing and not allowing for more room in the music.
Can you give us an example that specifically referrs to this circumstance of playing too many notes? Maybe I'll be able to better see what you're saying then.
Regarding his squeel-proneness: I can't say I'll argue that point, because I hear what you're saying, but I think it's exactly as you put it....in a way, that is. You said it sounds "like the shredders do when they're not thinking about the song/music, but rather how many tricks they can pull out of their bag in the next two and a half measures".....I don't think Trey is thinking about how many tricks he can pull out at all, but I think what's actually happening is that he's searching for something new in the music, and those pauses/whale calls/whatever you want to call them, allow him time to "see" something different, and that's not a bad thing in my mind. Think of those as rest notes....relative to the music, that is, b/c holding those sustain notes isn't really resting at all in a "traditional" sense.....is it? The other part of this equation is that he could be doing this on purpose, giving a different turn to the music/jam direction; in fact, I think that is the case, and directly corrolates with what I've mentioned above. I think it's trying something new & seeing what works.
I really don't think the "new gear" has anything to do with it...at all.
All in all, I have no complaints about his playing on this tour, other than being a little rusty or a little too reserved or a little too predictable at times. But hey, that's generously understood in my mind - I've seen 8 shows thus far (with Indio to come) and have not had many down/dissapointing moments, if at all. I mean, c'mon. We've waited this long, and they're as good as they've been in 10+ years, and now we're complaining? We've got too much time on our own hands if that's the case.
But then again....we all already knew that ;D :D
^ how can you not think using completely new preamps, power amps, and whammy settings has nothing to do with his sound and playing? have you used the detune whammy settings? either way, i think everybody is ignoring the fact that Red was free basing blow, doing smack, and eating pills all at once for a while before he got pinched.. i think all combined along with the pressure of not butchering old compositions has him sounding and playing the way he is right now.
* edit. to elaborate on the significance of the whammy settings, he basically uses it all the time now in detune mode. that gives him a more of a whiny whaling sound has he bends in and out of all those notes.
Personally, I liked the octave down whale call more ;0)
What exactly are these settings on his whammy 2?! I have that setup and have been constantly toying with it to get the clean notes trey voices, but I only get the real high pitch/digitized sounds that I'm not looking for. I mean I love the octave high settings with the pedal to the floor, but it all sounds way too digitized (hence the digitech name...) Is trey controlling the whammy using a midi expression pedal controller of some sort to get the subtle pitch bends with the detune setting? The logical answer to me is that he has this pedal at the beginning of a chain that is run through a bunch of other madness to smooth it out. A perfect example is the Alpine Piper where he pulls some whole chord pitch bends. When I hit full chords with this pedal on any setting, the notes clash with each other (as does any octave pedal). How does he do this, and clean taboot???
I'm running a custom shop tele>digitech whammy2>henrix wah(I know its a tone sucking combo at the front, but it works great with bypass)>tube screamer silver mod>marshall bluesbreaker>H20 liquid chorus/delay all fuhrman power conditioned into a fender vibrolux
Any help would be great for whammy conditioning. its a fun pedal that needs some help to my ears.
lol ^ its not that complicated. set it to 2nd down. tilt the rocker all the way back. see clean signal. push pedal down for detune. my previous posts are confusing because i say "hes using it to detune" whereby iam meaning hes using the 2nd setting as a whammy bar or detune er
I think Trey has regained his edge. He looks and mostly sounds like 1994 Trey again, and it's awesome to see. More notes, more ideas, more smiles, more spark in his eyes.
Quote from: Rusty the Scoob on September 02, 2009, 09:57:28 AM
I think Trey has regained his edge. He looks and mostly sounds like 1994 Trey again, and it's awesome to see. More notes, more ideas, more smiles, more spark in his eyes.
The smiles are the key! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Walker done done on August 31, 2009, 03:54:18 PM
[. . .] and they're as good as they've been in 10+ years, and now we're complaining? We've got too much time on our own hands if that's the case.
But then again....we all already knew that ;D :D
Oh, they're great. Probably, generally speaking, better than they ever were before, if one wants to consider their music as a function of the band's playing cohesively and with skill ("chops"). I just don't understand why Trey doesn't insist on the same dual condenser mic configuration that widened the stereo image of his guitar in the mix. And why is he playing through the Mark III? Couldn't he just have someone duplicate the same circuit but without the circuit board, thereby solving the fundamental sound issue regarding this guitar tone; namely, that it's high-frequency response tends toward thin, brittle, and squealish, while, at the same time, his low-end is all muddied out and unfocused.
and the truth finally comes out, Cactus is just still pissed Trey isnt using his favorite amp anymore :0(
Part of the truth, buddy, only part of it. There are multiple things that I am frustrated about regarding the return of Phish -- but please understand that I do not mean that these frustrations are merely my own (meaningless) view/opinion, among a seemingly endless string of other, often diametrically opposed, views. There is something real to the gripes, and the simple slow death of the latter will not dissolve this lack--this issue, problem, etc.--at the heart, if you will, of Phish's most distinctive sound (Trey being the agent of this sound, both vocally and instrumentally).
Quote from: posternutbag on September 02, 2009, 01:50:43 PM
and the truth finally comes out, Cactus is just still pissed Trey isnt using his favorite amp anymore :0(
Sorry Cactus brother, but that made me laugh really fucking hard. I get what you're saying though, but I sure don't think he's lost his edge from the shows I've heard. Just my opinion, and it's more humble than most on here.
That detune setting is not the only thing he uses, its so subtle even on the deep setting... There has to be more to the combo, his pitch bends are so pronounced compared to what the whammy produces on its own (in detune), apart from the octave up/down settings which muddles the sound. I'm perplexed and frustrated...sorry for hijacking the thread...
Quote from: AintNoTele on September 03, 2009, 12:34:18 AM
That detune setting is not the only thing he uses, its so subtle even on the deep setting... There has to be more to the combo, his pitch bends are so pronounced compared to what the whammy produces on its own (in detune), apart from the octave up/down settings which muddles the sound. I'm perplexed and frustrated...sorry for hijacking the thread...
NOT DETUNE 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down 2nd down
So I guess if the topic is now about the NOT DETUNE issue and away from the "lost his edge", I will second poster's suggestion as I have tried it (with a whammy II) and using the 2nd down is spot on (for this specific sound being discussed). It's when and how he (Trey) uses it that is the trick to master. If I remember correctly the 2nd down was suggested and confirmed many moons ago right after everyone noticed the new sound. I also remember Poster suggesting using the 2nd down as one setting and using the other setting for the 1 octave down. Flipping between the two depending on the song and or jam. Seems the deep jams require the 1 octave down plus, Leslie etc, etc...... as discussed many times, as well as the 2nd down for the aptly named whale call sounds (for lack of a better term). I will admit however, that I don't hear as many whale sounds as I thought I did initially. I have grown to hear and see it's usefulness. What's so cool is we wouldn't even be discussing it if some other big name guitar player had already made it a trademark, its not original per say but unique because Trey does it in a different way, in my opinion, than has been done before. I will say that Gilmour puts this to great affect, but in a much more subtle yet sexy way, ie, "The Blue" (1 octave up).
I was a newbie hear once and one thing I have learned, is that if you haven't actually tried the advice listed, previous posts or otherwise, than tread lightly on firm absolutes, at least in opinions. The answers are hear.
By the way, anyone know what ever happened to Jeff Goldberg? I used to live in DC and jam with him in Fairfax, VA occasionally and I lost touch about 8 years ago or so. He was another guy that used to know a bunch of these tricks.
Quote from: ColForbin on September 02, 2009, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: posternutbag on September 02, 2009, 01:50:43 PM
and the truth finally comes out, Cactus is just still pissed Trey isnt using his favorite amp anymore :0(
Sorry Cactus brother, but that made me laugh really fucking hard. I get what you're saying though, but I sure don't think he's lost his edge from the shows I've heard. Just my opinion, and it's more humble than most on here.
It's true I love that goddamn amp....what? What!?
Too much travel in the 2nd down. Use the octave down and feather it in. More expressive. Also go all the way toe down in 1 octave down with a uni vibe and nail the sound like what trey is playing on the thing when you log on to phish.com
Quote from: sour d on September 04, 2009, 11:14:47 PM
Too much travel in the 2nd down. Use the octave down and feather it in. More expressive. Also go all the way toe down in 1 octave down with a uni vibe and nail the sound like what trey is playing on the thing when you log on to phish.com
were not talking about 2 octaves down, 2nd down is like bending a whammy bar.
1 octave down setting
1 octave down. same as 2nd down but your foot doesn't move as far
Quote from: sour d on September 05, 2009, 02:19:01 AM
1 octave down. same as 2nd down but your foot doesn't move as far
6/10/09 undermind - that isnt octave down dude. fail :0D
I guess I'll try to explain myself one more time before I drop it because I still think you "fail" to understand. Let's say the full travel of the pedal is 20 degrees. In 2nd down mode your foot has to travel the full 20 degrees to make that sound. In 1 octave down your foot would only travel about 7 degrees to make that sound instead of using the full travel of the pedal. You could make the same sound in 2 octave down setting if you only move the pedal like 2 degrees. Kind of like playing slide, you have to use your ears to know where that 2nd down sound is in the travel of the pedal. Then you have the option varying how far you push the pedal with different notes to get different sounds. The reason I brought it up in the first place is because there is always more than one way to get to the same result. 2nd down is great when I'm playing with my whammy1, 2nd down is great when I use my whammy2 pedals, but guess what, I myself have a whammy4 too and so do a lot of people that read this stuff, and I bet you can't guess what a whammy4 doesn't have, a 2nd down function. I not trying to upset you. I was just offering some advice.
i hear what your saying, i just thought we were talking about trey, what he uses, and how he uses it. At knoxville i watched him push that rocker all the way down all night. My seats were a few rows up from the stage Trey side thats pretty much why Iam so confident, as I got a demo from Red himself for almost 3 hours.
One completely unrelated thing about the whammy i just noticed this past weekend, is that the rocker was getting noisy. I dont know if it was just dirt or what but it was making this plastic whiny noise whenever i moved the pedal around. Hit it with some WD40 on each screw that holds the rocker and WOW what a difference. Its silky smooth now. :0)
Quote from: sour d on August 31, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Ok, I'm gonna say it... My sister turned me on to phish in 1990 and I've been hitting shows/tours ever since. I feel the same way as cactuskeeb on this one and it kinda hurts to admit that my six string hero is sounding sub par. If you listen to any of the recent shows and a mistake is made, 9 times out of ten it was big red. As far as him getting used to a new rig, he should be able to show up with a line6 amp and a squier strat and still blow my mind. Maybe "sober trey" needs to relax and have a couple beers and sample some lot headies. That my friends is probably the magic that is missing.
That last part makes me sick. He's a human being trying to get healthy, so if his music is affected in his struggle to save his life, sobeit. It'll level itself out. Give him time. He's human. Forget the rockstar aspect for a second & respect the fact that he's a person dealing with his own shit outside of pleasing other people.
Quote from: cactuskeeb on September 02, 2009, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: Walker done done on August 31, 2009, 03:54:18 PM
[. . .] and they're as good as they've been in 10+ years, and now we're complaining? We've got too much time on our own hands if that's the case.
But then again....we all already knew that ;D :D
Oh, they're great. Probably, generally speaking, better than they ever were before, if one wants to consider their music as a function of the band's playing cohesively and with skill ("chops"). I just don't understand why Trey doesn't insist on the same dual condenser mic configuration that widened the stereo image of his guitar in the mix. And why is he playing through the Mark III? Couldn't he just have someone duplicate the same circuit but without the circuit board, thereby solving the fundamental sound issue regarding this guitar tone; namely, that it's high-frequency response tends toward thin, brittle, and squealish, while, at the same time, his low-end is all muddied out and unfocused.
Go get a steady gig so that you can worry about your own fucking tone instead of his. You obviously have nothing better to do & just want people to think you know what you're talking about. I can't believe any musician would spend their time worrying about what another musician uses for gear (Much less what they PLAY!!!) even if its someone like Trey, instead of their own shit. You spend all your time in some messageboard....why don't you fucking close your laptop & go practice your own stuff and find your own voice. boo-ya. kbye.
Quote from: dopaphrit on September 08, 2009, 12:38:00 AM
Quote from: cactuskeeb on September 02, 2009, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: Walker done done on August 31, 2009, 03:54:18 PM
[. . .] and they're as good as they've been in 10+ years, and now we're complaining? We've got too much time on our own hands if that's the case.
But then again....we all already knew that ;D :D
Oh, they're great. Probably, generally speaking, better than they ever were before, if one wants to consider their music as a function of the band's playing cohesively and with skill ("chops"). I just don't understand why Trey doesn't insist on the same dual condenser mic configuration that widened the stereo image of his guitar in the mix. And why is he playing through the Mark III? Couldn't he just have someone duplicate the same circuit but without the circuit board, thereby solving the fundamental sound issue regarding this guitar tone; namely, that it's high-frequency response tends toward thin, brittle, and squealish, while, at the same time, his low-end is all muddied out and unfocused.
Go get a steady gig so that you can worry about your own fucking tone instead of his. You obviously have nothing better to do & just want people to think you know what you're talking about. I can't believe any musician would spend their time worrying about what another musician uses for gear (Much less what they PLAY!!!) even if its someone like Trey, instead of their own shit. You spend all your time in some messageboard....why don't you fucking close your laptop & go practice your own stuff and find your own voice. boo-ya. kbye.
I think that's taking a little too far off track, but hey, you're entitled to your opinion too. I kinda want to write more in response, but don't have it in me right now.
[/quote]
Go get a steady gig so that you can worry about your own fucking tone instead of his. You obviously have nothing better to do & just want people to think you know what you're talking about. I can't believe any musician would spend their time worrying about what another musician uses for gear (Much less what they PLAY!!!) even if its someone like Trey, instead of their own shit. You spend all your time in some messageboard....why don't you fucking close your laptop & go practice your own stuff and find your own voice. boo-ya. kbye.
[/quote]
Not trolling at all huh?
Ooooohhhhh!!! Is that what trolling is? I've never seen it in the flesh, nor had it explained to me. It was far less scary than what I had thought it would be though, nor is it 'boo-ya' worthy, I like to save my boo-ya's so they don't lose their significance.
I think the best thing we got from all this is the re-introduction to the word "boo-ya". I'm not even sure I have heard it before. But I agree with ColForbin. If you going to use it it needs to be worthy. In this case it was just plain weird.kbye.
Sorry but i have to chime in here...after a bunch of VERY elequent technical talk by poster keeb and walker (which i enjoy and agree with), the smartest thing i heard someone say was "he is all smiles" (and i read posternut agree)..
i know people, especially guitar nerds such as us, can sit here all day and nit pick, but at the end of the day our favorite player is doing a TON better for himself, and the music is showing that.. i saw them 3 times on the second summer leg, and even when i might have felt there was a boring moment, they are up there cheesing it up and having a blast (that is more impoortant then my opinion).. we should all be grateful (and i know we are) that the best band out right now is back, and enthusiastic agian!!! this is the closest this band has been since their greates runs and it is becaus ethey are having fun agian!!
even with a few flubs, trey is far and away the best guitar player out right now and arguably the best ever (yes including hendrix, call me crazy)
trey is always gonna play mad notes, he is always going to have a lot of mid range, and he is always gonna explore. my advice is to not get too hung up on one thing, as it is the greatness of the whole that matters....
p.s. dont mean to sound all professory, i know this started as more of a observation, and that is what a forum is for...but i just want to take a quick moment to show my appreciation to the band and all you smart peeps!!
later dudes..
I think it's a great point and agree. They are up there smiling. Awesome, keep it going Phish. The fact that I get to even see them again - let alone in this wonderful capacity (them happy, the music sounding great, and everyone effin' psyched to be there) makes me overjoyed. I needed this in my life right now, so you won't find me complaining. And I don't think anyone here in this forum would disagree - we're all obviously psyched to have them back. That's what's nice about this forum, too - we can express an opinion about a tone or a note or a philosophy or a pedal or a tablature and get some interesting feedback.
that gets a big BUCK BUCK BOOYUKKA!!
Quote from: dopaphrit on September 08, 2009, 12:18:25 AM
Quote from: sour d on August 31, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Ok, I'm gonna say it... My sister turned me on to phish in 1990 and I've been hitting shows/tours ever since. I feel the same way as cactuskeeb on this one and it kinda hurts to admit that my six string hero is sounding sub par. If you listen to any of the recent shows and a mistake is made, 9 times out of ten it was big red. As far as him getting used to a new rig, he should be able to show up with a line6 amp and a squier strat and still blow my mind. Maybe "sober trey" needs to relax and have a couple beers and sample some lot headies. That my friends is probably the magic that is missing.
That last part makes me sick. He's a human being trying to get healthy, so if his music is affected in his struggle to save his life, sobeit. It'll level itself out. Give him time. He's human. Forget the rockstar aspect for a second & respect the fact that he's a person dealing with his own shit outside of pleasing other people.
I'm glad you care so much about Trey the "human being." That's so sweet of you, man...awe. :'(
Quote from: dopaphrit on September 08, 2009, 12:38:00 AM
I can't believe any musician would spend their time worrying about what another musician uses for gear (Much less what they PLAY!!!) even if its someone like Trey, instead of their own shit. You spend all your time in some messageboard....why don't you fucking close your laptop & go practice your own stuff and find your own voice. boo-ya. kbye.
Dopeaddict, I think you have to be a musician to understand what musicians would spend their time on, right?
EDIT: Oh, didn't see you guys and already ripped this guy to shreds on account of his booya-ing. My bad. I was just trying to help.
Quote from: Walker done done on September 16, 2009, 04:27:31 PM
I think it's a great point and agree. They are up there smiling. Awesome, keep it going Phish. The fact that I get to even see them again - let alone in this wonderful capacity (them happy, the music sounding great, and everyone effin' psyched to be there) makes me overjoyed. I needed this in my life right now, so you won't find me complaining. And I don't think anyone here in this forum would disagree - we're all obviously psyched to have them back. That's what's nice about this forum, too - we can express an opinion about a tone or a note or a philosophy or a pedal or a tablature and get some interesting feedback.
Awe... :'(
Quote from: cactuskeeb on September 22, 2009, 04:12:47 PM
Quote from: Walker done done on September 16, 2009, 04:27:31 PM
I think it's a great point and agree. They are up there smiling. Awesome, keep it going Phish. The fact that I get to even see them again - let alone in this wonderful capacity (them happy, the music sounding great, and everyone effin' psyched to be there) makes me overjoyed. I needed this in my life right now, so you won't find me complaining. And I don't think anyone here in this forum would disagree - we're all obviously psyched to have them back. That's what's nice about this forum, too - we can express an opinion about a tone or a note or a philosophy or a pedal or a tablature and get some interesting feedback.
Awe... :'(
Thanks for recognizing my post buddy. Now here's a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it! ;D
Quote from: Walker done done on September 22, 2009, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: cactuskeeb on September 22, 2009, 04:12:47 PM
Quote from: Walker done done on September 16, 2009, 04:27:31 PM
I think it's a great point and agree. They are up there smiling. Awesome, keep it going Phish. The fact that I get to even see them again - let alone in this wonderful capacity (them happy, the music sounding great, and everyone effin' psyched to be there) makes me overjoyed. I needed this in my life right now, so you won't find me complaining. And I don't think anyone here in this forum would disagree - we're all obviously psyched to have them back. That's what's nice about this forum, too - we can express an opinion about a tone or a note or a philosophy or a pedal or a tablature and get some interesting feedback.
Awe... :'(
Thanks for recognizing my post buddy. Now here's a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it! ;D
Thanks but I already knew how to chew stuff like gum before you were born.
Boo-yaw!
It's a quote from Al Pacino ;)
LOL ;)
Bob Bradshaws wife is smokin. :D