The Chirp

[HunSanity]

exactly AO... Exactly.
if i didnt have a frealing desk job id be practicing and not talking bout practice like AI.

[Poster]

Speaking of ole carlos,

i just picked up the 2 disc greatest hits santana album

and all i gotta say is, 80's santana is something i dont id ever heard.

their record company musta just handed them a box full of spandex, hair spray, and synths.

[patrickstefanski]

Knopfler uses his fingers (I've heard there are Taiwanese knockoffs of these).

where can i get them? how much? HOW MUCH!?!

[cactuskeeb]

Holy crap. This didn't get too out of hand, did it? We're talking about a fucking pick.

Santana uses a quarter.

Knopfler uses his fingers (I've heard there are Taiwanese knockoffs of these).

Discuss.

Knopfler's fingers are far more important to his sound than any aspect of his rig.  Herco Flex picks are essential to the Jimmy Page sound.  The Adamas graphite 2mm picks, and the way Trey holds them (a very light grip, in between the bottom of his thumb [which never moves] and side of the index finger) makes his clean tones that much more unique than anyone else's...you just have to try it, preferably with a hollow body--that's why this thread was started: someone found out how significant this particular pick is to a lot of Trey's signature tones (note that Trey admits all the time to using different gauge picks, so let's not assume this Adamas 2mm thing is the end-all-be-all).  Anyway, I want to emphasize as well that the right-hand technique, the wrist, and the arm, make all the difference in how a pick sounds.

EDIT: After taking a two year hiatus from playing the guitar, I returned to it determined to reinvent the way I held a pick, because I always felt that my old style, which was to pinch the pick between my thumb and bottom of index finder, didn't allow me to put the emphasis more on my wrist, all the way up to the shoulder, when I really needed to (for attacking notes).  So I learned Trey's style.  It was excruciating at times, and never seemed to be working for me but I just kept practicing more as a way to (hopefully) really make the change to this new picking style.  Two years later, it's feels right, and I never have the urge to go back.  My playing sounds completely different, and there is so much more nuance I feel I can add to the notes. 

[aoguitars]

I agree and disagree a little that last post, Cactus. Wen you're talking about Knopfler, I completely agree. However, when he uses a pick, he still sounds exactly the same.

When we're talking about guys with unique tone (and a small gripe--there's no such thing as being "much more unique" than anything)--guys like Jerry, Knopfler, Trey, Jimmy Page, Clapton, Santana--they could be playing with a plastic spork and still sound the same--I think you nailed it when you said that it's the technique that is just as (or even more) important to the sound than the material being used. The thing that we're missing in this conversation is that BOTH hands are essential to a player's sound, and most importantly, their EARS (and their influences, if you ask me). I find I can get that Trey "chirp" out of my Golden Gate picks--I think it's all in the string attack.

I look at it like this--say one of you went to jam with some friends and you can't find YOUR pick. So someone tosses you whatever they're playing and it's nothing like yours. What do you do? I think anyone who's put millions of hours into playing (like all of us on here) will inherently change their technique to get their sound out of that pick. Changing pressures, holding positions, all of it. That's your sound or the sound you're going for, and you'll find it with whatever. I think we've all had to improvise before a gig or jam once or twice with whatever we could find.

When I brought a bass backstage to Mike in Albany in '97, we were in the green room before the show, where their rehearsal rig was set up. Trey had his small practice board and there was a pile of picks next to his old 'Doc...all different brands and sizes. I have no doubt that he could use anything down to a Fender Thin and still sound virtually the same. I think like anyone else, he found something he likes, he's confident in it so he uses it all the time.

I think the best example of this is Charlie Parker, "Jazz at Massey Hall" back in the early '50s. Bird had sold his sax to due to drug addiction, and last minute had to find a sax for the show--Dizzy Gillespie ended up buying him a plastic sax to play the show with. It remains one of the greatest and most important live jazz performances ever recorded.

I actually think this is a great conversation as to how everyone on here thinks about tone and how people do what. I don't, however, see the need for things to get a little heated when we're talking about something as subjective as tone. Especially when Hun's original post was just him being super psyched that he found the sound he wanted out of a graphite pick that may or may not have been made out of rare groundhog pubes in China.

[cactuskeeb]

When we're talking about guys with unique tone (and a small gripe--there's no such thing as being "much more unique" than anything)--

From the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Usage Note : For many grammarians, unique  is the paradigmatic absolute term, a shibboleth that distinguishes between those who understand that such a term cannot be modified by an adverb of degree or a comparative adverb and those who do not. These grammarians would say that a thing is either unique or not unique and that it is therefore incorrect to say that something is very unique  or more unique  than something else. Most of the Usage Panel supports this traditional view. Eighty percent disapprove of the sentence Her designs are quite unique in today's fashions.  But as the language of advertising in particular attests, unique  is widely used as a synonym for "worthy of being considered in a class by itself, extraordinary," and if so construed it may arguably be modified. In fact, unique  appears as a modified adjective in the work of many reputable writers. A travel writer states that "Chicago is no less unique an American city than New York or San Francisco,"  for example, and the critic Fredric Jameson writes "The great modern writers have all been defined by the invention or production of rather unique styles."  Although these examples of the qualification of unique  are defensible, writers should be aware that such constructions are liable to incur the censure of some readers." 

I actually think this is a great conversation as to how everyone on here thinks about tone and how people do what. I don't, however, see the need for things to get a little heated when we're talking about something as subjective as tone. Especially when Hun's original post was just him being super psyched that he found the sound he wanted out of a graphite pick that may or may not have been made out of rare groundhog pubes in China.

I'm confused: When did things get heated?   

[Walker done done]

^^^ That.....just happened.

And that....was pretty damn funny. 

I agree with AO & Cactus though, the conversation itself is the best part of this whole thing, because it gets ideas circulating, gets people thinking, trying different things, searching for different sounds they may or may not know they like or dislike until they find them.  It's a beautiful thing.  I enjoy this forum for stuff such as this.  I used one of the Adamas's at practice last night, given to me by raisingfreen (ty!), and enjoyed it.  Alas, I found I sounded quite the same as when I used my Alligator 2mm's.  Who'da thunk it = I did.  It's very much in my left and right hand as previously said, and less so in the pick.

And how about that Clay Buchholz last night!  Nice to see him manning up, especially at a time when the rest of the rotation can't tell their ass from their elbow.  Kinda sad (or scary) when the thought of adding Dice-K to the rotation gives you a ray of promise.  That's when you know the rotation isn't where it should be.  And on a side note, Jay Bay now is now tied w/ Papi for home runs on the year.  Heard that from my buddy Shoe & thought it was pretty funny. 

Sorry for the thread hijack.

[cactuskeeb]

I agree with AO & Cactus though, the conversation itself is the best part of this whole thing, because it gets ideas circulating, gets people thinking, trying different things, searching for different sounds they may or may not know they like or dislike until they find them.  It's a beautiful thing.  I enjoy this forum for stuff such as this.

Wow, that was well said. 

[Poster]

Iam still gonna kill a giant turtle!  Slay the beast as an offering to the tone lords of the outer realm.

[Walker done done]

$20 says you lose a body part in the process. 

[Poster]

Not if I manage to be on horseback when I spear the terrapin. 

[Walker done done]

I stand corrected.  Didn't see that one coming, touche.  You could also prevent loss of limb by throwing a heavy net from a chopper, though there'd be cause for concern over your unnecessary carbon footprint by utlizing this method.  Seems a bit "Hollywood" for just one turtle too.  Horseback looks to be the greenest way to go.  Good luck.

[patrickstefanski]