Phish's (and yours) Stage Sound

[picture_of_nectar]

Hearing loss/damage is one of my biggest fears. I like to play loud, who doesn't, but sometimes after a rehersal or gig my ears literally hurt.

Watching Phish it doesn't look like they have ear plugs or in ear monitors (except maybe Fishman) But obviously they can play pretty damn loud. I'm thinking they must keep their stage volume low enough and push most of their sound through the PA.

This just seems amazing to me with all their huge cabs, tons of stage monitors, etc. I have to wonder how they do it?

How do you do it? Like in your soundcheck how do you keep things low enough and still balanced? It seems like we always start low and then as jams build everyone wants to be up more and before you know it the volume is deafening and...riiiiiiing starts. I tried ear plugs and it helps but everything just sounds weird like I am playing from the other room.

I know a few of you guys are really experienced with this. Thoughts?

[phishlips]

I think the bottom line is, it's just something we have to deal with.  I have tried earplugs too and every time I do I end up ripping them out halfway through the first song, it just doesn't sound right with them.  I'd have to think that phish is got the same ringing going on that you do.  I don't see them except for Page wearing inears (although I've never looked for Fish to be wearing them) using any protection, and you can bet it's pretty loud up there.

This summer my band has been taking out our "big rig" for some outside shows and we end up mic'ing everything.  We've noticed that in that situation the band does end up playing softer on stage and better, but it's still plenty "loud."  Clubs and bars are a different story though since everyone is usually right up to you and sucking up all the noise so ya just keep turning up as the night goes on.

All in all I'd say on a big stage it's not as loud as in a club or bar but I'm sure they're ears are ringing too, at least sometimes anyway.

long post but no help....sorry.

[Happyorange27]

My take is that with more monitors strategically placed and having the right mix, you can achieve everything at a lower overall volume in stage. Obviously your monitors must be as loud as the un mic'd drums. Also you need to have enough guitar monitor/amp for some feedback/sustain. Again I'm no traveling stage pro but I've tried some concepts out. More lower monitors are better than fewer loud ones.
Build your own soundbubble on stage. Why do you think Trey has like 5 monitors around him?  Brad Sarno even said Treys sound bubble was full sounding and engulfing, but not harmfully loud.

[Walker done done]

I am in the same boat when it comes to ear plugs - I always rip them out shortly after putting them in.  I'd love to use them, but I agree...it sounds like weird muffled noise, not the music we're making.  My ears do ring after gigs (and even right now, they're ringing) but it's part of the deal, unfortunately.  I don't think there's any real way around it.  I'm sure Phish's ears ring too.  But their system is so far advanced from where any of us are that we don't have a shot at even replicating it.  Mic'ing your own gear is a good idea any time you can, because I feel you get a more even sound from everything.  Does it allow you to play a little quieter?  Maybe a hair, but not much.  I think it's more a tool to better hear the band as a whole than affecting the overall volume.

But, I have a cardinal rule I always follow: I never turn up.  Not even from practice space to gig.  My amp volume is always at the same level (appx. 4, believe it or not) and my guitar is always maxed, so my volume never changes.  If we play a big room, we mic everything and leave it to the soundguy to do his job and make sure the crowd hears what they're supposed to hear.  But a lot of the places we play don't require that, and we go with what we feel is the best, and to me that invloved consistency, so I'm a big believer of making sure the band practices as we play live.  Of course if someone needs to be turned up or down, we always have a few people in the crowd that will direct us as needed, and that's a big help.

[picture_of_nectar]

Thanks guys, appreciate your comments, especially Walker with your tons of gigging experience.

Curious of your techniques getting stage sound/volume right during a soundcheck. Seems like the acoustic volume of the drumkit is what we need to set our levels to. So what are the steps to achieving this? Have the drummer beat his brains out as loud as possible and then adjust bass, guitar, keyboard, vocal levels accoriding to his max?

We tried that once and the drummer was like "yeah, but I hardly ever hit them that hard, so now all you guys are too loud..."

Seems like walker has a set it and forget it approach. I am constantly playing with my volume to control feedback and dirt levels, so there is no way I could just set my amp to 4 and guitar to max and forget it...


PS, this is one of those topics I wish Poster was still here to comment on. Come back dude...

[Walker done done]

PS, this is one of those topics I wish Poster was still here to comment on. Come back dude...

Why, so he can fill us all with hot air?  LOL....no, but I'm being serious.  I'll be the first to admit the guy was full of knowledge...but he was also full of shit, full of himself, and God knows what else.  It's a shame he couldn't be humble and share the knowledge he had without being a first class prick about it.  But I digress...

I would not set your stage volume to the drums, and your drummer makes a good point.  Rarely (if ever) will he play as loud as he can...and he really shouldn't play that loud.  Think of how hard you can physically hit a drum head.  Unless you're in a thrash metal band (or whatever they call it these days), there's no reason on earth you should hit the drums that hard. 

Again, I like the "set it and forget it" approach because of it's consistency, but it's just my experience, and that comes from the places I've played at.  I figure you're either in a small room/bar, where the sound is the same (for the most part, at least when referencing volume levels), or you're in a big room (or an outdoor venue) in which case you should mic everything (drums included) and leave it to the soundman, because in a large room/outdoor venue the only volume you really care about is what YOU can hear...he'll take care of the rest.  In a smaller venue/bar, the instruments are typically loud enough without having to mic them.  Have a buddy or two - that you trust and has a decent ear - pay attention to levels, especially during the first few songs.  If he says turn keys up and bass down, do so....naturally, he'll never tell you to turn the guitar down!  .  We've gotten to the point where we don't even sound check rooms we've played before; we just show up and start playing and adjust accordingly (if at all) during the first 2 songs.  Hope that helps.

I'll end with this - the more you do it, the better you get.  You're not going to be an expert the first 10 times through.

[Walker done done]

* - I'll say all that to say this: sometimes you do have to adjust your volume a little on your Tubescreamer, or sometimes your Drive just isn't as dirty as usual.  But more often than not I don't even touch the pedals (any of them), because I have them set at a sound that I know and want.  Again, it's not 100% of the time that it's perfect, but it's close. 

I said before that I never touch my volume (on my amp).  I should retract that and say it goes between 3 and 5, which if you know the Fender HRD, is not that great a swing.  I find when you get above 5 is where you really start to notice a big difference.

[sour d]

PS, this is one of those topics I wish Poster was still here to comment on. Come back dude...

If you want, I can make up a bunch of shit, and then you can call me out on it. Then I'll just go back and edit the lies out of my post. It'll be just like old times....

My first gig with the band I'm playing with now, we were spoiled. The place had a great house sound, sound guy, and great stage monitors. Now when we play anywhere else, we feel let down. Nothing is worse than having a rushed sound check either. We opened for this guy adam ezra and his band had a long sound check leaving us with about 5 minutes to set up and check. First song and I'm like " I can't hear the sax, I can't hear the drums (he plays an electronic kit so having enough of him in your monitor is important)" and the drummers like " all I can hear is your guitar" It sucked. With my limited experience I'd say a good sound check is key.

[picture_of_nectar]

I have my own PA system (QSC K12's, K Sub, and K10 monitors, and a Mackie board) It's a pretty good set up, the speakers sound excellent. I'm still learning the fine tuning points. Most of the places we jam don't have a PA or sound guy so it was kinda necessary we do it all ourselves. Learning the sound has been a challenge though. It's hard without a real sound guy.

[Walker done done]

It can be hard, and stressful, without a soundguy...most places we play don't offer one either, but it's part of the "playing out learning curve". Once you play a room a few times, you know it enough to know how you and the band should set up, and a soundcheck becomes less necessary.

[manicstarseed]

I think the hollow body guitar is THE key ingredient for saving your ears.

One of my considerations in  a hollow-body guitar is oodles of  tone, sustain and controllable feedback at decreased volumes. Using my Les Paul through a 5-watt-mode Express is half as loud as my 55 watt Nomad and sustains infinitely at "talk-loud" levels. I posit that the threshold volume (SPL) on a hollow-body would be lower than that of a solid body.

Once I achieve hollow-bodied-ness, I can enjoy 25 and 50 watt amps with so much response, I need to control my overall volume. I need a guitar that can sing at a simple touch and still be able to hear at the end of the day.

The descriptions of Trey's rig earlier only confirm this point. His amp and monitors have to be volume matched and if it is a safe condition, its because he is not playing that loud. The guitar is a key element in making this possible.

[ShockedAndPersuaded]

I think the key factor to all of this is that Phish plays in an outdoor setting most of the time.  It takes 10 times the amount of gear to create the same volume on stage as a pub or bar.  The larger the room the more gear it takes.  When you're outside the sound quickly dissipates and "feels" quieter than an inside gig.  That's probably why they have so much stuff.  I guarantee after Knoxville or Cincy the boys are hearing the crickets chirp.  I don't play professionally but I have been at it for about 16 yrs and have had the privilege of doing some big stage stuff.  I would take a big stage gig any day over a pub as far as the bubble is concerned.  The band I'm in now is fairly loud compared to some.  It definitely translates better in outside gigs.  Doesn't hurt as much.  Unfortunately with my rig I have to have it at a certain level to get the response, sound, and feel out of it that I like and am used to.  I'm not loud by some standards but I'm certainly not bedroom volume either.  The down side to that is on some inside gigs I can't be run through the house as much as others if we are mic'd.  This is a big trade off if you're recording so you can post clips on here so others can check out your tone.      As for the ringing.......I'd be GLAD to hand that phone to Liz.  

[Rusty the Scoob]

I guess I probably fall into the "ton of gigging experience" category....

Shocked and Persueded made one of the points I was about to make - Even in an arena, Phish gets to make a LOT more stage noise without suffering hearing damage than you can in a club, especially one with brick or glass or marble or any of those other ear-destroying surfaces.

My bands usually avoid volume wars in a few different ways.   My usual bass amp simply does not cleanly go louder than a certain volume, so I cannot turn up even if I want to.   More important than that IMHO is clarity.   People most often have trouble hearing themselves not because one specific person in the band is too loud, but because the overall mix turns to mush.   If everyone sets their sound to be ultra clean (even distorted guitars can be clean - the compressor helps, and don't waill on barre chords) and avoid each other's sonic range, it's way easier to get a clear and relatively quiet mix.  A big part of this is avoiding the use of too much low end - there's no information below 100hz on vocals or guitars, if you can drop that off completely it helps a ton and you lose nothing once the whole band is playing.  (unless you're a 3-piece, single-vocalist type situation where the mix might get too thin)