Anyone a good jazz player?

[Jkendrick]

Do any of you guys play jazz? I posted this in a technique thread over at TGP and it got ignored. I'm interested in feedback, but also advice on how to practice to get better at playing over complex changes. I've been trying to force myself to play only arpeggios but while I can do this very slowly while practicing,  it isn't very musical and I always revert to bad scale pattern habits when playing with others.

Here's the original post from TGP:

I'm a hobbyist guitar player that is more or less self taught. Try as I might, I've had a hard time breaking through to play the "right" way. I try to do a little of all of this with what little time I have to play/practice. I transcribe, I do exercises like the OP talks about, and I try to break down tunes and create my own solos. By "create my own solos," this is not about writing out note for note, but rather trying to get the tune ingrained so I can play over the changes improvisationally (and yes, this often includes bag of tricks type riffs).

Here is a recent acoustic thing I did for All The Things You Are. I'd appreciate any feedback. I also don't want to hijack the OP's thread.

https://soundcloud.com/jim-kendrick/all-the-things-you-are

As I said, I'm a hobbyist with very little formal training, so be gentle. I'd also add I play very little jazz. Most of the playing I do with others is rock, but I've always wanted to become a better jazz player (okay, enough disclaimers).

[Hans Moleman]

Yes, jazz! One of my bands is a trio (guitar/drums/bass) and we do standards and things of that nature. Love talking jazz. Apologies in advance if I suggest a lot of stuff you've already covered.

One of the first things I would recommend is to practice with a metronome. The better your time gets, the more it will sound like you're playing 'the right way', regardless of the style of music. Locking into the grid, whether it be eight notes, triplets, whatever, will sound good regardless of notes played. Personally I have to work on my time feel a lot.

Practicing arpeggios are great, I should do more of that myself. At the same time, getting comfortable with the modes is important so you can start adding the extensions to those chords you're playing over and getting more 'interesting' melodies. If you aren't familiar with the altered or diminished scales those are good ones to work on as well. To get those sounds 'into my ears' I played over minor ii-V-I loops for hours on end. Adding those to your repertoire will be really helpful in jam band and fusion stuff as well.

I'm totally self taught like yourself and one thing I have found is that it's best to get very comfortable with some of the easier standards and then work your way up. All Blues, So What, Blue Bossa, Maiden Voyage, All of Me - things like that. Fusion stuff by Scofield, Freddie Hubbard and people of that nature is also great in that respect. Songs like that are a great place to work out ideas.

One suggestion would be to work on playing 'through' the changes. A good way to think of it is to try and have all your phrases end on the 1 of the next bar, that way you've at least played into the next change. Hopefully that makes sense.

How is your knowledge of theory? If you are solid on that front then you're ahead of the game. If not, it's not difficult to understand, just takes time. I find it much easier to run through changes if I take the time to read the lead sheet through and understand the harmony from a theoretical perspective. If you've already got that covered then forget I mentioned it.

Happy to see someone going down the jazz rabbit hole. It's totally addictive. Hopefully there's something in that rant that can be of use!

[Jkendrick]

Yes, jazz! One of my bands is a trio (guitar/drums/bass) and we do standards and things of that nature. Love talking jazz. Apologies in advance if I suggest a lot of stuff you've already covered.

One of the first things I would recommend is to practice with a metronome. The better your time gets, the more it will sound like you're playing 'the right way', regardless of the style of music. Locking into the grid, whether it be eight notes, triplets, whatever, will sound good regardless of notes played. Personally I have to work on my time feel a lot.

Practicing arpeggios are great, I should do more of that myself. At the same time, getting comfortable with the modes is important so you can start adding the extensions to those chords you're playing over and getting more 'interesting' melodies. If you aren't familiar with the altered or diminished scales those are good ones to work on as well. To get those sounds 'into my ears' I played over minor ii-V-I loops for hours on end. Adding those to your repertoire will be really helpful in jam band and fusion stuff as well.

I'm totally self taught like yourself and one thing I have found is that it's best to get very comfortable with some of the easier standards and then work your way up. All Blues, So What, Blue Bossa, Maiden Voyage, All of Me - things like that. Fusion stuff by Scofield, Freddie Hubbard and people of that nature is also great in that respect. Songs like that are a great place to work out ideas.

One suggestion would be to work on playing 'through' the changes. A good way to think of it is to try and have all your phrases end on the 1 of the next bar, that way you've at least played into the next change. Hopefully that makes sense.

How is your knowledge of theory? If you are solid on that front then you're ahead of the game. If not, it's not difficult to understand, just takes time. I find it much easier to run through changes if I take the time to read the lead sheet through and understand the harmony from a theoretical perspective. If you've already got that covered then forget I mentioned it.

Happy to see someone going down the jazz rabbit hole. It's totally addictive. Hopefully there's something in that rant that can be of use!

Cool man. Yeah as you can probably tell from that All The Things You Are, I struggle with time too. I'm lucky if I get a half hour per day to practice and I'm bad about sitting down with the metronome.

I feel I know theory fairly well but as I said I struggle to incorporate it naturally into my playing. I always revert to the same patterns on the neck. Learning songs like All The Things You Are is my way of forcing me out of those boxes. And that's why I want to try to learn to play directly to the chord utilizing arpeggios.

I just got a looper and am excited to use it for practice in just the way you describe. One thing I've thought of but haven't tried yet is to record a chord progression and have it randomly drop out, sometimes for only a measure or two sometimes for longer. The idea would be to try to keep playing through the changes and in time without the aid of the accompaniment.

One thing that's been on my "to do" list forever is to transcribe Cannonball Adderly's solo from Autumn Leaves. It's one of my favorite solos from any genre, any instrument. I think it will be instructive and give me ideas for my own solos for both jazz and rock.

Feel free to keep this thread going for tips, tricks, ideas, clips, or just random jazzy banter.

[Hans Moleman]

If you're reverting to stock phrases I would try two things. The first idea is to start breaking up a progression into smaller parts, 4-8 bar sections, something short. Work on that one section until you feel you've mastered it, even if it takes a few days. Then move onto the next section. Once you've gone to the end of the progression work on making the whole tune sound coherent. Working on small chunks is very helpful.

The other idea is directly from Wayne Krantz - break the guitar neck up into zones. If you restrict yourself to playing within a 4 fret zone then a lot of the patterns you use won't even be available. Let's say I've said I won't play outside of the 4th through 7th frets - that D mixo lick I use higher up the neck isn't an option so it forces me to think of something else.

[Jkendrick]

No for me I don't think that would help. If I restricted myself to four frets I'd still play the same way. It's less about reverting to phrases, though I do have fallback licks I probably play too much. It's more that I approach the notes on the neck almost geometrically rather than musically. I started learning scales as patterns without really understanding the *important* notes or how the scales were constructed. If I had it to do over again, I'd learn all the notes on the neck as intervals. Then I'd learn triads. Then I'd learn arpeggios. Then I'd learn modes. As it is, I have a hard time thinking of the Dorian mode differently than the Aeolian mode; or the Mixolydian mode as different from the Ionian mode. I understand it intellectually, but I revert to patterns when I play. It's tough to deconstruct your playing and subtract notes. For example, trying to play anything musical when restricting myself to just arpeggios is really tough because my fingers instinctually want to go to other notes. I have to be conscious of avoiding them and that gets in the way of being musical and natural.

Does any of that make sense?

[No Nice Guy]

I hate to hijack this topic, but would you guys recommend any good books for learning about jazz?  I taught myself the basics a couple years ago and never really learned a specific style.  I'd like to start with jazz.

[Buffered]

I hate to hijack this topic, but would you guys recommend any good books for learning about jazz?  I taught myself the basics a couple years ago and never really learned a specific style.  I'd like to start with jazz.

Jamey Aebersold stuff is really popular for a reason, and I have the blue one and while I haven't cracked it open in a few years it's a great resource IIRC.

I just took a pencil to a real book and notated what the music notation was, e 1/4 note etc after I knew the basics. Sort of flash cards for learning to read music. Jack Zucker's Sheets of Sound is also really cool but it's more of a concept book.

Great stuff Hans! I need to work on my diminished scales and whole tones, I'm having trouble memorizing the shapes and I found I do better by memorizing the way the scale is built then apply it to different keys.

W Diminished and H diminished have thrown me for a loop. Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong spots online. Do you know a good resource for learning the shapes of those two scales?

[Hans Moleman]

The Jazz Theory Book is really all you'll need for theory:
http://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Jazz_Theory_Book.html?id=iyNQpJ4oaMcC&redir_esc=y

Bear in mind it's written by a pianist and as a result a bit piano focused, but it's a fantastic resource. It moves pretty quickly so I would really recommend taking your time. Read a page or two and then run through play-alongs of the songs they use as examples to actually get the ideas under your fingers.

Like Buffered, I think Aebersold play-alongs are a really great resource. If you're looking just for lead sheets of standards you can find more or less everything online now.

For composition I've referenced this book a lot, I love it:
http://www.amazon.ca/Jazz-Composition-Practice-Ted-Pease/dp/0876390017
Very well laid out, lots of great examples.

To get back to JKendrick's post - if you're having trouble getting the different modes and their sounds in your head beyond strictly theoretical, then instead of playing through standards with them, maybe play through a very simple 2 or 3 chord vamp that typifies that mode. For example, in Dorian just loop a Imin7 - IV9 change (Amin7 - D9). In Mixolydian use a I - bVII (A - G). For Lydian use a I - IIMaj (C - D) etc. etc. etc. Play that over and over until you get really comfortable using the scale and it's 'important' notes (in Lydian the key notes would be the 3rd, sharp 4th and major 7th, for example).

For learning diminished/whole tone/altered shapes it's really all just about putting the time in shedding it. Personally I found that once I got the 'sound' in my head it made memorizing the positions easier. They're weird sounding scales so it can take time.

I mentioned it before but I really think that the idea of breaking the neck into 4 fret 'zones' is a fantastic tool because it forces you to learn all of the available notes in that one position. Once you've mastered it, move on to the next zone. Works well for me. Also, minor ii-V-I's are a great thing to loop and use them. Using altered/diminshed stuff over vamps to create a little tension at the end of a phrase a la Scofield/Metheny is also a really amazing trick.

[Stiles12]

I used to teach jazz guitar for about three years, I would love to talk some jazz with you guys. I also studied with Dave Allen for about two years who about two years ago came out with his album real and imagined, wich is pretty awesome stuff. he is a hell of a player.

I think it is really important to pick a style of jazz that you want to learn, so many people I have found come in and want to learn "jazz" but have no clue what jazz sounds they want. pick a bebop type sound or a modal sound and try to focus on that while you are learning. There to much information to process when you are learning if you just want to learn jazz (might aswell say you just want to learn to play music)

I really found george benson's early stuff to be my draw and hook to jazz guitar. His use of octaves and his rythmic timing is just something that I have never found any other jazz guitarist able to duplicate. Check out the CD Jazz moods Hot by George, and listen to songs like Take 5 (dave brubeck), or California Dreaming (momma and the poppas), hold on im coming (sam and dave). other songs like shark bite and 6 to 4 are also real good benson tracks off the album breezing.

not ramble just love playing jazz and talking about it. 

[Jkendrick]

The Jazz Theory Book is really all you'll need for theory:
http://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Jazz_Theory_Book.html?id=iyNQpJ4oaMcC&redir_esc=y

Bear in mind it's written by a pianist and as a result a bit piano focused, but it's a fantastic resource. It moves pretty quickly so I would really recommend taking your time. Read a page or two and then run through play-alongs of the songs they use as examples to actually get the ideas under your fingers.


To get back to JKendrick's post - if you're having trouble getting the different modes and their sounds in your head beyond strictly theoretical, then instead of playing through standards with them, maybe play through a very simple 2 or 3 chord vamp that typifies that mode. For example, in Dorian just loop a Imin7 - IV9 change (Amin7 - D9). In Mixolydian use a I - bVII (A - G). For Lydian use a I - IIMaj (C - D) etc. etc. etc. Play that over and over until you get really comfortable using the scale and it's 'important' notes (in Lydian the key notes would be the 3rd, sharp 4th and major 7th, for example).

For learning diminished/whole tone/altered shapes it's really all just about putting the time in shedding it. Personally I found that once I got the 'sound' in my head it made memorizing the positions easier. They're weird sounding scales so it can take time.

I mentioned it before but I really think that the idea of breaking the neck into 4 fret 'zones' is a fantastic tool because it forces you to learn all of the available notes in that one position. Once you've mastered it, move on to the next zone. Works well for me. Also, minor ii-V-I's are a great thing to loop and use them. Using altered/diminshed stuff over vamps to create a little tension at the end of a phrase a la Scofield/Metheny is also a really amazing trick.

Yeah the Levine book was what I would recommend as well. This reminded me to get my copy back from my brother-in-law!

Hans, if I may call you Hans, this is great stuff. Thanks for taking the time.

[Jkendrick]

I used to teach jazz guitar for about three years, I would love to talk some jazz with you guys. I also studied with Dave Allen for about two years who about two years ago came out with his album real and imagined, wich is pretty awesome stuff. he is a hell of a player.

I think it is really important to pick a style of jazz that you want to learn, so many people I have found come in and want to learn "jazz" but have no clue what jazz sounds they want. pick a bebop type sound or a modal sound and try to focus on that while you are learning. There to much information to process when you are learning if you just want to learn jazz (might aswell say you just want to learn to play music)

I really found george benson's early stuff to be my draw and hook to jazz guitar. His use of octaves and his rythmic timing is just something that I have never found any other jazz guitarist able to duplicate. Check out the CD Jazz moods Hot by George, and listen to songs like Take 5 (dave brubeck), or California Dreaming (momma and the poppas), hold on im coming (sam and dave). other songs like shark bite and 6 to 4 are also real good benson tracks off the album breezing.

not ramble just love playing jazz and talking about it.  

So while I'm mostly self-taught, I did take a summer jazz session at Manhattan School of Music. It was my first time even attempting to play jazz and I was terrible for a lot of the reasons you spell out here. Funny story though, we had auditions so we could be placed with like-ability players. Knowing no jazz, I played Steely Dan's "Josie," the jazziest thing I knew. The instructor, Rodney Joneshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Jones_(guitarist) who I later took private lessons with for a while, thought I had written it and placed me in the advanced group, further contributing to my flailage.

And stiles, I think you'd really dig Rodney's stuff. He's got lessons online too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zysu7JtqiUo

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=rodney+jones+guitarist&tbm=vid

[IamWILSON]

JKendrick- You already hit the nail squarely on the head with the following comment:

"If I had it to do over again, I'd learn all the notes on the neck as intervals. Then I'd learn triads."

I can't think of a better way to build a solid foundation for playing all music, and obviously jazz.  I am a decent jazz player, but I don't really play jazz anymore because I always feel like I'm not good enough, and I've lost the passion to keep "chasing that dream," moreso because I realized it's not really what I want.  But the cool thing is that every once in a while (6 months to a year) I'll get into a little kick and spend a couple weeks playing along to some Aebersold play-alongs and I always feel like I make progress from the last time I spent playing standards.  There was a time when I did know close to 40 standards from memory, but I am far from that now, so I usually just choose the easier tunes, and some favorites and play through those.  And after a couple weeks I go back to doing all the other stuff I like. 

Ok, so enough with trying to qualify myself, but I have been teaching guitar for almost 10 years now, and have taught students how to play jazz.  Triads are the basis to all harmony.  You should learn triads first.  And as you are learning them, you will also realize that you have already begun learning intervals too.  Here's the deal: You play a major triad in root position, and you will see what a major 3rd interval looks like (from the root to the 3rd scale tone), and you will also see what a minor 3rd interval looks like (from the 3rd scale tone to the 5th scale tone).  Practice playing the triads in every key on all string sets (6,5,4/5,4,3/4,3,2/3,2,1) so you will learn to see the differences across those sets, and all of a sudden, that different interval between the G and B strings isn't so scary to navigate across.  But you should also practice them so you are playing the triads over only 2 strings sets (root on one string, with the 3rd and 5th on the next string, and also R and 3rd on the same string with the 5th on the adjacent string).  Same as before, practice all these triads in every key on all different string sets (6,5/5,4/4,3/3,2/2,1).  Now if you can do that with all the major triads, then do them all in minor triads, and then in diminished triads, and then in augmented triads, and don't forget to practice them all in every key!  And then not just that way, but also practice seeing all these shapes as root position, 1st inversion, and 2nd inversion triads.  I know this is alot of work, but it does pay off tenfold.  After all the work you are doing on these and in all the keys, you are not only learning your entire fretboard, but also your ears are learning the sounds of each of these triads in their various inversions, and it is invaluable to easily distinguish what you are hearing in jazz tunes (or any music), and being able to play along to it. 

Now back to what I said about every once in a while I get in a kick and play jazz tunes for a couple weeks.  As I've grown more experienced, I've also learned how not concentrating so much on what notes I play, but how I play them (attack, articulations, rhythmically, dynamically, phrasing) has really helped me sound more musical and make the wrong notes sound right!  But to relate it all to triads, the triad notes of a chord always sound good, but too much sounds very boring.  Instead of ever thinking about scales/modes, your use of the other 9 notes along with the triad notes will give you endless options to create great melodies, and in fact, you will then be playing modally. 

Just remember this about modes and the way you are thinking about them as patterns you've learned on the fretboard.  All those patterns are still just major scales.  Modes just describe the sound that the scale creates when the tonic is not the root note of the major scale.  And there are given scale tones that really exemplify the sound of each mode.  As an example, Carlos Santana is usually playing in Dorian modes (the sound you get when playing a C major scale from D to D (the note that really describes Dorian is the major 6th, or B in my example), and Jerry played alot in Mixolydian modes (C major scale from G to G, with F being the b7th which makes it sound Mixo), but they still played lots of stuff that changed keys or modes.  Like if Jerry was playing in G mixolydian (just a C major scale) and was going to shift an idea into G Dorian, all he is doing is changing the B to Bb, thus playing an F major scale. 

Okay, well I'm sure I've told you enough to really either confuse you, or just steer you away from all this hard work, but I promise if you start to explore the ideas I've mentioned above, you will make strides in the direction you wish to develop towards. 

[Jkendrick]

For me modes aren't really confusing to me from an intellectual/theory standpoint. I understand them, both parallel and relative. The problem I have is that my approach to the neck when playing, not practicing -- i.e. when I just try to play naturally, without over-thinking -- is so pattern-based that everything comes out vaguely major or vaguely minor. I need to have the notes internalized better so that when I'm playing Dorian the major 6th shines through and you get the feel of Dorian. Part of the problem is I use a lot of chromatics too. I, of course, always want to improve on anything and everything, but modal playing really isn't my focus right now. I want to have a better command of arpeggios so I can better play to the chord on fast moving, complex changes. Right now, I feel my playing is kind of meandering and unfocused until I can find I or V to resolve. That's okay, I guess, but I really struggle with creating the type of melodicism I want and certainly harmonically. Ultimately, the idea of removing available notes is just an exercise that will (hopefully) allow me to view the fretboard in a different light.

P.S. I don't know if anyone knows what's up with this, but I can't reply to threads I've started on a mobile device (using Tapatalk). It seems isolated to threads I've started and only on this forum (no issues on TGP using Tapatalk). And it works fine on a desktop computer as I used for this post.

[Jkendrick]

Hey guys, especially teachers! I've decided the best way to start with my arpeggio study is to work with a tune I already know. I found this arpeggio study of All The Things You Are and I am going to work on it. Good idea? Or is this putting the cart before the horse?

[IamWILSON]

Hey guys, especially teachers! I've decided the best way to start with my arpeggio study is to work with a tune I already know. I found this arpeggio study of All The Things You Are and I am going to work on it. Good idea? Or is this putting the cart before the horse?

That is the same kind of stuff that bogged me down and never helped me truly be able to just improvise over changes... I wouldn't waste my time on that.  You said you can already play arpeggios, all be it slowly, over changes.  Has that helped you get to where you want to go?  And sound musical?  That study won't be very different.  Look back at my previous post, and never mind what I said about modes, as you understand that part of it.  TRIADS are it!!!  They are arpeggios, just in a smaller form.  Each of those measures in "All the Things..." is just one possible position where you can arpeggiate the changes.  But within each measure (or arpeggio) lies triads of every inversion.  Yes the triads are just R, 3, and 5th, but when you know how they fit together all over the neck, have some technical facility of your fingers, and you understand basic music/jazz theory (7th chord harmonies), it's so easy to add in the b7th a whole step below the root for your min7th, Dom7th, and -7b5 chords, or a half step below the root for your Maj7th chords, as well as seeing the relationship of all the extensions (9th, 11th, 13ths) to the triads.  Have you ever played "Stash?"  That entire composed part basically consists of minor, major, and diminished triads that involve passing tones and various ornamentations around guess what?  TRIADS!!!  It's a lot of work to master, but at some point when you've done enough work on it, everything begins to be so simple, and you can free your mind to actually create music and improvise.  Just my 2 cents.... and by the way, I make the majority of my income via gigs and teaching music. 

I'll even break down the first measure on that F-7 chord:
1st 3 notes: F Ab C = F min triad
2nd, 3rd, 4th notes: Ab C Eb = Ab Maj triad
remove the 4th note, and examine the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th note: Ab C F = F min (1st inv triad)
once again remove the 4th note (Eb - that pesky 7th) examine the 3rd, 5th and 6th note: C F Ab = Fmin (2nd inv triad)
the 5th, 6th and 7th notes once again are root position F min, and the last 3 notes are just another Ab maj triad

What can you learn from this?  If you are playing over a Fm7 chord, you can easily use it's minor triad or the major triad from the the minor 3rd (Ab) chord tone of that Min 7th chord.  Even cooler, you can play a minor triad off of the 5th chord tone of the Min 7th chord.  So for F-7, you can play a C min triad and begin to sound the extensions of the F-7 as C Eb and G are just the 5th, b7th, and 9th relative to F-7, thus sounding F-9.  What if you play a major triad based off the b7th of the F-7?  Then you are sounding the b7th, 9th, and 11th.