Got sucked into the NOS tube world

[Heady Jam Fan]

Man, I was trying to avoid getting sucked into NOS tubes...

I had some NOS 6V6's, but I think I'm leaning toward new Production JJ 6V6S's thankfully! They are durable and sound bigger than regular 6V6 tubes, but don't have quite as squishy a feel. NOS 6V6's seem like they can get pricey too.

I also had an Amperex Tungsram and RCA Grey Plate 12AX7, and RCA Grey Plate 12AT7. They beat out all of my new production preamp tubes: JJ's, Ruby's, Mullards...

On one hand NOS preamp tubes last a long long time, but they are still expensive and it sucks if you happen to get a lemon that dies in a few months when a Black Plate RCA 12AX7 costs $50. So I didn't buy anymore NOS tubes... for a while...

I had been using my Grey Plate RCA 12AX7 in V2 of my Deluxe Reverb - the first preamp tube in the Reverb/Vibrato channel. It was my favorite in that position about 6 months ago when I tested all my tubes in this amp. However, I had been tweaking my amp a lot and decided to do some more tube rolling. I much preferred the Grey Plate RCA 12AT7 in V2 now.

Then I started thinking... I'm using 12AT7's in V2, V3, and V6, NOS 12AT7's don't cost more than new production tubes NOW (though they will go up in price), and they last longer... Might as well buy some more...

I just bought a big bulk of NOS tubes.

5 Westinghouse Black Plate 12AT7s, 3 of which appear to be RCA's, 1 of the others is Japanese and not sure about the last. The 3 RCA's should be great in V2 of my amp.

1 JAN Philips 12AT7. Along with the other 12AT7's (aside from the Black Plate RCA's), these will make great Phase Inverter tubes (V6).

Rather than using 12AT7's for the Reverb Driver (V3), I got some 12AU7's: 2 RCA Long Grey Plates and 2 GE Grey Plates. This will help tame the reverb so its easier to dial in. These also cost less than 12AT7s.

And Finally, I bought a GE Long Grey Plate 12AX7 to have a third option for V4 (reverb recovery). I tried an 12AT7 here and it did not sound good - it was thin, harsh and really brought the volume of the amp down so it didn't overdrive until 7 on the volume knob. I actually preferred my Amperex Tungsram over my RCA Grey Plate in this position, but both are incredible warm and smooth.

All of these tubes tested 90+% new, some like they just came out of the factory. Aside from the JAN Philips 12AT7, which I got separately, I paid under $10/tube! And the seller said they would send a few extras.

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Have you tried any NOS 5AR4/GZ34 tubes?

[Heady Jam Fan]

Have you tried any NOS 5AR4/GZ34 tubes?

Yeah! When I got the amp, it came with a GZ34. I don't think it was vintage (NOS), but TAD. As far as the rectifier, NOS vs current production won't effect tone, just how long it lasts. It was definitely punchier, but a bit harsh. My understanding is the GZ34 can really wear out 6V6's very quickly, though it might be okay with JJ's. I do have a few NOS 5U4GB tubes as backups - cheap and last forever!

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Have you tried any NOS 5AR4/GZ34 tubes?

Yeah! When I got the amp, it came with a GZ34. I don't think it was vintage (NOS), but TAD. As far as the rectifier, NOS vs current production won't effect tone, just how long it lasts. It was definitely punchier, but a bit harsh. My understanding is the GZ34 can really wear out 6V6's very quickly, though it might be okay with JJ's. I do have a few NOS 5U4GB tubes as backups - cheap and last forever!

Oh okay that's good to know. I just snagged a Slant 6v and it too has the GZ34 that promptly crapped out (center guide pin melted) Swapped in a Mesa GZ34 and it appears to be fine now, but i'll look into those suggestions for backups! It seems like those two tube types are pretty comparable as well.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Wow, the guide pin melted? Sometimes a bad tube or something wrong with the amp can cause that type of overheating. Once I saw a bad reverb tube melt the wax potting in a reverb transformer. Hopefully it was just the tube and not the amp - I'd just keep an eye on the amp for the first hour or so you use it with the new rectifier tube.

I don't know much about the 6V - is it a DR clone?
IIRC with a DR, you can use 6L6's (and the 4ohm tap for an 8ohm speaker) along with a GZ34 rectifier or solidstate rectifier. I never tried it though.

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Wow, the guide pin melted? Sometimes a bad tube or something wrong with the amp can cause that type of overheating. Once I saw a bad reverb tube melt the wax potting in a reverb transformer. Hopefully it was just the tube and not the amp - I'd just keep an eye on the amp for the first hour or so you use it with the new rectifier tube.

I don't know much about the 6V - is it a DR clone?
IIRC with a DR, you can use 6L6's (and the 4ohm tap for an 8ohm speaker) along with a GZ34 rectifier or solidstate rectifier. I never tried it though.

Kind of - Originally it broke cleanly and I was able to reinsert the tube correctly to get through the rehearsal. When I swapped the tube for the current one I noticed that the then cleanly broken shaft had started to melt the remaining plastic a bit (nothing major, a little bit.) I probably should've explained that better.

I had the amp run and watched it while the game was on Saturday. Since the guide pin was broken, and I had transported the amp to rehearsal the original tube wasn't making a clean connection to the socket I think it's tube-related as everything sounded fine once I got it back up and running with the new Mesa tube. The original was a Sovtek, which I think is a robust tube as well.

The 6v kind of is, It's got 3 power modes - 2 6v6 for17 watt cathode bias, 22 watt fixed, and 38-40 watts combining all four of them. I would've definitely tried that 6L6 and a rebias, but I currently only have 6V6s! Hearing you guys talking so highly of them on here helped sway my decision. It's also got an OD channel that was modified by Henry at Redplate amps for more D-style tone vs the Marshall gain of the original 6v.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Kind of - Originally it broke cleanly and I was able to reinsert the tube correctly to get through the rehearsal. When I swapped the tube for the current one I noticed that the then cleanly broken shaft had started to melt the remaining plastic a bit (nothing major, a little bit.) I probably should've explained that better.

I had the amp run and watched it while the game was on Saturday. Since the guide pin was broken, and I had transported the amp to rehearsal the original tube wasn't making a clean connection to the socket I think it's tube-related as everything sounded fine once I got it back up and running with the new Mesa tube. The original was a Sovtek, which I think is a robust tube as well.

The 6v kind of is, It's got 3 power modes - 2 6v6 for17 watt cathode bias, 22 watt fixed, and 38-40 watts combining all four of them. I would've definitely tried that 6L6 and a rebias, but I currently only have 6V6s! Hearing you guys talking so highly of them on here helped sway my decision. It's also got an OD channel that was modified by Henry at Redplate amps for more D-style tone vs the Marshall gain of the original 6v.

Oh good to hear; sounds like the amp is fine. I have a few tubes with broken guide pins. Its a bummer, I'm just real careful if I use them.

Sounds like a cool amp - 4 6V6 tubes? Interesting!

I had been using my Blackfaced DR almost exclusively at practice and gigs this past year, but I just switched my Mesa into a head cabinet and 1x12 extension. The Mesa, in that format, might even be easier for me to lug to gigs and practices. I've been using the Mesa the last couple weeks - my Bandmates actually prefer it (though maybe they just like hearing something new/different). Its nice having the option of a 6V6 tone in the DR, and Simulclass in the Mesa.

BTW, I've been using Steamboat Hemp 100 speakers in both amps and I'm loving them.

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Kind of - Originally it broke cleanly and I was able to reinsert the tube correctly to get through the rehearsal. When I swapped the tube for the current one I noticed that the then cleanly broken shaft had started to melt the remaining plastic a bit (nothing major, a little bit.) I probably should've explained that better.

I had the amp run and watched it while the game was on Saturday. Since the guide pin was broken, and I had transported the amp to rehearsal the original tube wasn't making a clean connection to the socket I think it's tube-related as everything sounded fine once I got it back up and running with the new Mesa tube. The original was a Sovtek, which I think is a robust tube as well.

The 6v kind of is, It's got 3 power modes - 2 6v6 for17 watt cathode bias, 22 watt fixed, and 38-40 watts combining all four of them. I would've definitely tried that 6L6 and a rebias, but I currently only have 6V6s! Hearing you guys talking so highly of them on here helped sway my decision. It's also got an OD channel that was modified by Henry at Redplate amps for more D-style tone vs the Marshall gain of the original 6v.

Oh good to hear; sounds like the amp is fine. I have a few tubes with broken guide pins. Its a bummer, I'm just real careful if I use them.

Sounds like a cool amp - 4 6V6 tubes? Interesting!

I had been using my Blackfaced DR almost exclusively at practice and gigs this past year, but I just switched my Mesa into a head cabinet and 1x12 extension. The Mesa, in that format, might even be easier for me to lug to gigs and practices. I've been using the Mesa the last couple weeks - my Bandmates actually prefer it (though maybe they just like hearing something new/different). Its nice having the option of a 6V6 tone in the DR, and Simulclass in the Mesa.

BTW, I've been using Steamboat Hemp 100 speakers in both amps and I'm loving them.

Yeah, I'll probably hold onto it for a backup - I still have that broken chunk of pin and could super glue it but I'll leave well enough alone heh..

That's interesting, is it the shorthead model? That sounds like a real manageable setup. I still have my Express 5:25+ for grab n' go esque and a different flavor. The Mesa is still lighter than the Carr, and for that band I may use the Mesa just because the rehearsal area is a second floor room and the steps are muy sketchy.

I've been real interested in those Steamboat Hemp 100 speakers, the Kingpin 60 that came in the Carr is a great match for that amp but I'll have to do some more research on it. My EVM12L isn't really getting used nowadays since I sold my ODS.

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Welp, I ordered a steamboat!

[Heady Jam Fan]

Welp, I ordered a steamboat!

Haha! I think you'll love it - interested to know your thoughts after it breaks in (it took a little while)! Great price too!

It replaced my Weber Blue Dog. The specs I got on the Weber were just too dark: 100w, hemp and pre-rola doping. I really like hemp, so if I got another Weber in the future, I'd get it without the doping I think. Also, the Weber is a 40oz magnet and a Celestion H-sized magnet is 50oz, so the Steamboat has a bit more warmth in the bass. I've been recording over the past few months at a studio and the Steamboat sounded fuller (less boxy) and cut through better. Also, the Weber is less efficient than the Steamboat (or a Celestion), though they offer a booster magnet if that is an issue.

The Steamboat is really balanced. Its made from an old Celestion G12-80 frame, and it sounds similar to that IMO. However, the hemp makes the speaker smoother sounding than a Celestion. The closest current-production speaker would be the Mesa C90. The Celestion CL80 is similar to the C90/G12-80, but the CL80 has a kind of annoying 'ping' or 'chirp' in the top-end. The Steamboat has more mids than an American speaker, but less than the ear-fatiguing V30.

I also sold my EVM12L when I got it. The EV is just too heavy (weight), and the frequency range is too extended to my ear (in both the bass and treble).  I just find when I record with the EV, I use a high-pass filter to get rid of the extra bass at the way low-end so the bass player doesn't get washed out. That extended low-end is great for someone like Santana; the band is named after him so the bass player isn't the focus anyway. And I find the treble on the EV a little fizzy or harsh at the way top compared to a hemp-coned British speaker.

All in all, the Steamboat is great - not as dark as a lot of hemp coned speakers and smoother than paper cones. The cone is made by A Brown Soun / sold by Tone Tubby.

Re: Mesa
Yeah - Mine is the short head. I have it in a head cabinet that someone local made for me by modifying a combo cabinet, but I have a professionally made head cabinet being made (should ship out by tomorrow). At gigs/practices, I have my guitar, pedalboard and amp (either combo or head/cab), so I need two trips to lug all my gear anyway. The Mesa head in one hand, extension cab in the other is actually easier than my Fender DR combo.



I didn't realize you sold your ODS - any reason?

Have you owned / played a Mesa Mark III? How do you compare the cleans from a Mesa, ODS and Fender? I don't have much experience with D-style amps, but I always felt they were kind in the middle of a Mesa and Fender as far as midrange, punchiness/fastness, and tightness/punchiness in the bass.

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The last hemp speaker I had was an Emi Cannabis Rex which I liked a lot, so I'm excited to have some time with this.

I found the high end of the EV to be too present/harsh as well. It pairs great with ODS style amps, of course the extended bass and full almost "high-fi" quality to the tone in those amps tend to work great with the EVM12L. Not a bad speaker at all, just with what I have now it may not be the best choice in the long run.

That's a sweet lookin cab! I have the tie dyed open back that I use, but for the bars that we play a Thiele would be nice - I always associate them being kind of a sound cannon where the open back tends to dissipate a bit I would say. What configuration is that?

I've had the ODS for a year, and it was just time to change things up. Great cleans, and great OD - but finding great tones in both sides of that amp was really tough (one 3 band EQ) and I kind of got sick of tweaking it for ten minutes every time I moved it. It was real touchy too, and wasn't ideal for my apartment. I'm not sure if it's true for all ODS type amps, but mine played really "hard" if that makes sense. IE, my playing technique would be right in front, and even a little mistake would come through loud and clear. That's more of a user error, as I still think ODS amps and Fuchs in general is great. The Fuchs financed the Carr, so that was the other reason

When I first got on here back in 2009, I bought a Mark III. It died and instead of changing tubes (the likely issue in retrospect) I just returned it because I was a toob noob and didn't spend a lot of time with it.

That being said, and I'm probably going to catch a lot of crap for saying this but I think Mesas and Dumbles are really, really, close. Here's why I think so:

Both originated from Fenders, with additional gain controls (ODS have the input gain, OD in, OD out, Master, and loop return - 5! These amps like having the speaker cable mod, + into -, - into + so theres 6 and an even number) Mesas vary on the model but my Express has 2 that I use regularly. Four if you include EQ, and the Solo boost. The Mark series has a similar number, probably more.

They both offer the Fender esque clean tones, with extended ranges and greater fine tuning of EQ (Mesa more so) The midrange on my Fuchs was more complex than my Mesa however I was able to compensate with EQ fine tuning (3 stages now) - at least to my ear. That being said the Fuchs (ODS) was much easier to dial in than the Mesa.

I think Dumble's perfection/fickleness attitude towards his craft partially explains why so few Dumbles exist, whereas Randall Smith's business model partially explains Mesa's huge popularity.

People will absolutely disagree with me, but from what I can hear I set up my Express to match the ODS on the Express burn channel set very low.

As a side note, ODS amps have a great extended frequency clean tone (EVM12Ls love that) and that's because they were mostly 50, 100, or 150W and the big cleans need big iron - I had to set my Express to 25w mode to get close. HAD made this thing called the Hotel Hog which is around 25w IIRC but I've never seen one besides in his product catalog.

Not meant to take these ramblings as fact, just my opinion based on a year with both a Mesa and a Dumble clone, and I'm speaking from a player's perspective.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Thats too bad about your Mark III. When you say the Mesa was really "hard" that is what I meant my fast and punchy; everything you do/touch on the guitar jumps out of the speaker, nothing is hidden. Its challenging! Its hard to play an amp like that, but it also made me a better guitarist since I have to pay attention to every nuance. I remember getting used to that when I first got them amp and feeling a bit timid as I was playing; really focusing on not making unnecessary string noise, etc. When I recently brought my Mesa back out, I was surprised again having to adjust to this aspect of the amp. I love how every noise you make jumps out of the speaker, but it can get exhausting too; paying that much attention to your playing and aurally, listening to just a punchy/aggressive amp.

I agree about the similarities between the Mesa and Dumble. Apparently the two amps were developed simultaneously and independently, though there were some similarities in the changes the two companies made to the Fender circuit. I know some Dumble fans don't like when Mesa fans say there is a similarity. I assume this is partly difference in the way people hear, and partly because no one wants to say their expensive Dumble clone sounds similar to a $900 Mark III .

My cabinet is a convertible back. That option only costs $10 more, so I figured why not? I'd never owned an closed back cabinet, though I've played through some and liked them. The bass player in my band loved the closed back tone of that cabinet so much I didn't even try opening the back for the first month or so I had the cabinet. Finally, last week I opened the back as I was getting my gear ready for a gig and decided I liked the open back more. The Mesa is so punchy and focused that the closed back was just too much of that I think; the looser and more dispersed sound of the open-back was ideal for this amp. Not to mention, open back is a bit louder, and, while I almost never turn my Mesa the whole way up (or even close), I like having all the volume available.

Just after I bought that cab, I talked to GTS - a member from the Mesa GrailTone forum who builds custom head cabinets. He mentioned he has a Mesa Theile cabinet that he personally re-tolexed in purple. IIRC, the price he offered was pretty reasonable.

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It was a cool amp for sure. You're right, the ODS was all about your picking dynamics and I enjoyed that at home because it helped me develop that part of my playing but on stage in the heat of battle I tended to forget those exercises and the sloppiness would come out. The Adamas picks were really noisy too, and so I switched to a 1.14 gator grip which is helpful (makes playing easier for me too) The feel of those amps aren't bad at all, it just takes great playing to get the most tone out of them. I wish I did a video of mine demonstrating the picking sensitivity, extremely powerful range from almost clean to a searing gain depending on how hard you hit the strings. For me I have to develop that part better and so the ODS wasn't working out in my situation.

Right, I think it's hilarious people spend tons of money on Dumble clones - only to spend more on the d-lator (essential IMHO) reverb, and tubes and speakers only to find that production amps get in that same ballpark for a lot less. Fuchs is the only D-style brand I'd spend cash on if I was back in that market, at least they throw in most of that extra stuff! I found Dumble folks to be pretty stubborn, and that they can "hear" the differences in pot values/wiring techniques etc. It's all smoke and mirrors to make them feel better they got hosed. If I could do it again I would get a SF twin and use an Ethos pedal for those tones and get +85% there.

Convertible cabs have really piqued my interest. Although, my main experience is the open back but I've also used a closed back Mesa with a C90. I'm not really up on tonal differences, aside from a Mesa Thiele. Grailtone is great, I saw a boogafunk cab there I almost pulled the trigger on! I'm a big fan of the DRRI shell open back I have now though, and I may stick to what I know..

[Heady Jam Fan]

It helped me learn about open vs closed back cabs to have a convertible one - only one variable changes and you can hear the difference it makes. I could see closing it for certain live situations.