Bathtub Gin theory

[Walker done done]

So I was thinking maybe we could get started on (gulp! :shock: ) theory discussion for some Phish tunes.  Might as well, we might even learn something!  Hoping y'all can add to this discussion, too!  Feel free to add corrections/comments/quibbles/complaints as needed:

Take Bathtub Gin for example.  Pretty easy song, pretty straight forward, changes keys a bunch (F, Bb, etc...it's all over the place) but when you get to the ending, you can basically stay in C mixolydian (I'm talking after the intro to the solo & the vocal harmony part), though there's a ton of room for interpretation/chord melodies, which is one of the reasons I love playing it so much - the rules sort of go out the window.   .  Sort of.  You still have to have a game plan, and hope that everyone in the band is with you (or at the very least, if they're not, that you can follow them).

Like I said before in the video post, most of the time when we start the jam, I like to jump off into a C minor blues pentatonic to start, and maybe switch it up and throw a few different modes in there as well, depending on what the band is playing.  That's one thing I've learned a lot of very recently - if the band isn't allowing you to play certain notes, well, you can't just play them cuz you want to, otherwise you end up being the one that sounds \"out\".  Ideally, you'd like to surround yourself with people that can actually HEAR the differences & changes (go figure, right?) when you modulate from one mode to the next, but hey, it's tough to surround yourself with 3-4-5 of those types of musicians, so take what you can get, I guess.

Anyways, I've gotten my band to the point where I can keep them on a C minor, keeping the jam dark and funky to start with, and I've been able to toss in some color notes as we build, eventually crescendoing back into the happy C mixo jam that it's intended to be.  I really gotta sit down & study not only what Trey's doing in this song, but what the other guys are doing that actually allows him to do what he does.  Without that info, it's kinda useless, see?

I also really try to stay off the one, or more use it as a coloring note and not \"home base\".  I've noticed Trey does this a lot - in fact, he's the master of it.  Keeping you (and your ear) on the edge of your musical seat, not quite to the point of musical blues balls (see Jimmy Herring for that), but he'll really utilize the 3rd, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th....and build it up, working and building phrases & melodies around each of these temporary \"home bases\", discarding one when he's done with it, moving to the next as if to say \"nope, that's not the one we're focusing on anymore, it's THIS one...\" and sometimes he'll even revisit a phrase he had made a minute or two ago, so it's recognizable to the ear and when you hear it as a listener, you're \"back on the one\", so to speak.  Building, buidling, building until the crescendo.....and WHAM!  Back on the one (C in the case of Bathtub).  The orgasm note.  Pure bliss.  You know the ones I'm talking about.  It's tough to do, but if you have a band that's good enough and can jam on some notes and have fun with it, you'll get there with practice.  I think it's a long road, but I'm getting there.

[gratephulphish123]

i have noticed trey dodging the one until apexes and i find this really cool, now that i've made a decent leap into theory (whereas before i could only play ionian modes now i can play mixo and ionan... hooray) i will try to focus on this homebase strategy, i primarily use 4 and 5 as bases sometimes i'll play around the aeolian root.

in gin i just play ionian modes most of the time, a dark gin jam before the mixo part sounds pretty cool, i know during funk years and on gin typically was always mixolydian and calm. however i'm part of a trio, we have basically no rythmic players except the drummer, so me and the bassist have to play alot to fill holes, pretty soon i'm gettin a new loop pedal that can delete loops with the feet buttons as opposed to having to stop mid jam and turn a wheel and hit the delete key (live and learn i moved the inferior one to my practice amp). regardless within my band there isnt much setting up camp on a particular root

[Poster]

hmmm, this is just my feeble 2 cents, but its been my experience that if you listen to a good recording enough times, you can mentally recall those jams while playing; to better demonstrate my point, i can point to an experience i had years ago when an old band i was in learned sand. nothing too difficult by any means, but we just jammed it every night for 3 weeks straight for 45 minutes at a time. if you listen to recording of the jam from three weeks out, it sounds like were taking from several of our favorite versions of the tune and blending them into one long overthetop version. like regurgitating matrixs that my brain had memorized...
i would also argue that if you play long enough with another individual that it is only a natural progression to be able to anticipate matrixs and patterns of that person opposite you. to me its really just a matter of putting in the time,  they best way for me to incorporate some the more 'trey like' tendencies is not by dissecting a tune on paper, but by carefully listening to a batch of good recordings again and again. also, picking a mandolin helps me to hone some of wonky timings phish likes to play around with. think first tube<>

[Walker done done]

Right and right.  It defintely takes TIME, more than anything else really, to get good with other people.  It's a rare thing when that happens overnight.  I've played with these guys for about 9 years now (almost 6 on guitar, the other 3 were playing congas, go figure), so suffice to say \"we know each other\".  But I've played with other people in the past few years, expecting that \"thing\" to be there, and at the time, I was sad, perplexed, and almost angry that it wasn't.  Knowing what I know now, it's easy to see why.  Duh.  'Tis the lucky to be able to pick it up and run.

But as for the songs themselves, although I didn't touch on what Robert had said, I fully agree 100%.  Listenening to those songs enough engrains certain wavelengths into your mind/body/fingers that naturally comes out while in the jam, but I also am trying to break down some walls that are there both purposely, naturally, and spontaneously within Phish.  They do have structure, although loose or even semi-inivisible at times, that allow them to walk around, poke around, explore, discover, manipulate, and eventually breed what's in front of them.  And that kind of stuff is one of the many courses I'm trying to feast on, to improve my own understanding of the why's/when's/how's/what's that is music.  Same thing within the Dead, although this beast that is Phish seems a little less untameable at times.  Sure is fun as hell to try though  :wink:

And gratefulphish123, definitely get off the Ionian kick.  I don't mean that in a bad way either, but teach your ear (and your bandmates at the same time, whether they're aware or not! ) how to incorporate that mixo mode in, and, even harder IMO, the Lyidian mode in.  And while your learning all this stuff, I hope you are teaching your bassist what it is you are doing and I hope he's learning the modes too - can't be understated, trust me - mine knows nothing of modes/scales/theory and refuses to learn any of it.  Good bassist, but he's got limitations - big ones.  Of course, you kind of have to find the right songs to do it in, but Bathtub is a PERFECT example in which you can incorporate both the Lydian & Mixolydian modes into your playing - you just have to figure out (read: teach your ear) how they sound in contrast with the chords that are being played over your soloing.  It's going to sound different, funky, and even out of place at times, but keep trying to create tiny phrases/riffs/lines/whatever you want to call them within the jam, repeat them a few times so the rest of the band gets familiar with this newfound melody, and from there you'll learn even more.  It's groundbreaking when you first hit a few, as I'm sure you've done already, and I say this as much to you as advice to myself....it's hard to do.  It's hard to focus on furthering the development of you, the band, etc. but it needs to be done, and sometimes pep-talking myself and trying to fool myself helps  :lol: .

[gratephulphish123]

i've been trying alot of stuff and it's a real pain in the ass for me to get out of the mixolydian mode once i get in it. i've been practicing scales and modes with harry hood and bertha, hood anything but mixolydian sounds like shit but bertha can sound ok off ionian, but once i get into mixolydian mode it's a major road block going back to ionian. i also tried gin and found it was really easy to switch modes, i guess cause bertha and hood have such preset feels to them... oh well. no work with lydian but i'll start learning about it after i'm comfortable with these two.

theory's a bitch  :evil:

and shakedown aka walker, it looks like we have the same problem. my bassist wont even begin to delve into theory, because he saw what a long and horrible process it was when i had to do it. a bass only has 4 strings, should be easier to learn anything on it right?

speaking of theory how many modes do you guys usually use when playing, do you use all of em or just use three or four. i read on wikipedia that trey uses dorian, locrian and mixolydian primarily, so just wondering what you guys prefer?

[Walker done done]

Well I use all the minor modes (Dorian, Phyrgian, & Aeolian), as well as Ionian & Mixolydian, the most.  I've been tackling Lydian & Locrian over the past couple of months but would not say I'm formidable in either yet.  Theory is a bitch, mos def.  But you gotta start your bassist on something - hell, give him major & minor pentatonics to start, those are tit.  And drill it into him that he's gotta do it, otherwise he's only going to be so good on bass.  And who wants to be mediocre or half-assed at something?

The thing about playing is that I want to be able to converse with other musicians if someone asks me \"hey what was that you were playing during that so and so part\", and the same thing goes for being able to talk gear with them.  I'm still very much a novice in both, but hey, at least I'm trying to get better.  Gotta start somewhere, and these forums sure have helped.  And if you're not trying to always get better at what you're doing, then what the hell are you doing in the first place?  Wanking around, that's what.  I don't care if you flip burgers or sell stocks, you should always try to be getting better at it, I think.

[Poster]

well check out the man himself walking circles around a tight gin from 98'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWXGP-qaKoQ



(i know this should be in the video section but found it made more sense in here..)

[Poster]

if you take a trip to the pictures and video section ive created a thread dedicated to instructional tapes on modes