Please, a little help guitarist to guitarist

[IamWILSON]

Flavaham,

It sounds like you are on the right path with realizing that you can play the minor Pent based on Am, Dm, and Em when in the key of CMaj/Amin.  Just the same, you can use Cmaj, Fmaj, and Gmaj Pentatonic in the same key.  To talk about the CAGED system a little bit.  All you need to know is how to play the diatonic scales from each of the caged positions.  And if you know the 5 pentatonic scales already, those do in fact relate to the CAGED positions.  It sounds like you are thinking about them as the min Pent, so if you just use the relative maj of each Pentatonic scale and add in the 4th and 7th scale tone, you can easily figure out all of the Major scales based out of the CAGED pattern.  I suggest to get used to seeing it in Major scales, because then you can play off of them all modally too, that is once you can see the major scales on the fretboard and also identify all the various scale tones within them. 

[manicstarseed]

Flav:

It does work with the Minor scales.
The F#m=A, Am=C Bm=D, Em=G C#m=E ...etc
The standard minor pentatonic (index root) we all cut our teeth on is really the  G-shape scale (1-4,1-3,1-3,1-3,1-4,1-4)  Major root is the pinky of the same shape.  Learning the scale in relation to the "parent" chord is the process. The patterns repeat.

The other day, I was playing and realized I can now pick a chord, play it (or fake it with a partial) in any position then play the pentatonic major scale,  associated with that chord and then re- target another shape of the same tone and continue do the same. I could not do this 2-3 weeks ago, last week BANG-quantum leap. I have been dabbling with it for a little over a year.
It really boils down to muscle memory and understanding the positional relationships.Once connections are made between fingers, mind and fretboard, doors are literally blown open

Playing in the 5 position... Am pentatonic and the chords shift to Dm. Based on the CAGED approach, I know that I can play an a C-form scale pattern(F major), still in 5th position and come out sounding right. Yes I already know that  you can say "shift to the Dm pentatonic, root on 5th string scale" and its all the same.  CAGED is just a systematic study approach that targets fretboard understanding, not music per se. Music comes later.
I will add that the (4) resulting, lead scale patterns are essential for navigating between positions.

Playing with CAGED-in-mind, I have "discovered" great things is that instantly added whole modes to my repertoire.

One day I was thinking... OK G mixolydian That's like C major  but from G to G... that's basically Am Pentatonic (Am=C), just hit those Cs Gs  and Fs (sharpened 7th) from time to time.... Instant access to every Mixo mode that exists for all scales.

In the end it is just a tool that can help guide the understanding. At some point we all need to let go and play where the music take us.

[Flavaham]

I gotta say, I'm actually more confused now.  I was thinking in terms of just knowing where to play each chord on the neck at first.  I didn't see this as a way to find scales.  Is there a full write up on this somewhere that starts basic and gets up to this point? Maybe a book or other publication?  I'm going to google it and see what I can find.

I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on how to improvise.  I use chord tones, full and pentatonic scales and can add passing tones and other notes for "flavor" all day long.  This whole "CAGED" thing is a brand new concept to me though and for now is not clicking. 

[manicstarseed]

It can be a little confusing.
I use the Fretboard Logic series (2 bound books, 3 volumes and a DVD) for like $80. I didn't mean to make it confusing. It really does simplify the fretboard. Its really a tool to conceptualize the patterns. You will find that it can tie up some loose ends. Its more demystifying than my convoluted descriptions/examples make it out to be.

[Flavaham]

Well, I googled CAGED and found a site that had a bit of a write up on it.  I see that it throws you from position to position quite easily.  Here are some of my thoughts on it:

1. Great for major chords.
2. Makes you look at some "old" chords a little differently.
3. Can keep you alert when playing rhythm and/or backing a soloist.
4. Not quite as practical for minor chords.  The shapes are very awkward for C, G and D.
5. Still don't really know how this relates to scales.

Overall, I feel like there is a lot more for me to discover in this theory.  I opened up a song book that I had nearby and just decided to play every chord that I saw for one or two bars and moved them around with this theory in mind. I can say that it did seem to open up the fretboard even more for me.  I already feel like I see the fretboard well so this was encouraging.  I found myself going straight to comfortable "shapes" for minor a lot though as those shapes don't exist in my fingers yet.  It did give me some very diatonic improv, but I attribute that to the fact that I mainly just arpeggiated each form for the most part. 

I'm going to continue to dabble with this each time I grab my guitar for a while and see what I can see.  If you have any pointers for getting deeper into this I'd love to hear them!
Thanks!

[manicstarseed]

1. Great for major chords.

Yes it is. All major chords are minor chords of one kind or another. The major chords/scales encompass all inversions and modes.  Its really not so much about "Major Chords" musically speaking ... Its about understanding the pattern organization of the fretboard based on how it relates to the repeating open chord shapes/forms of C A G E and D. It addresses navigation from the fundamental basis of the tuning system of the guitar and then simplifies it and make it practical.

2. Makes you look at some "old" chords a little differently.

Yes it certainly does. They are used in  decoding the fretboard. They become maps and shortcuts. Entry points into scales and  exit strategies out of them. Alternate voicings

3. Can keep you alert when playing rhythm and/or backing a soloist.

Dedicated practice of the concepts prepare you for fluid rhythm variation.

4. Not quite as practical for minor chords.  The shapes are very awkward for C, G and D.

Again, its not all about chords per se . It does eventually teach how to form any chord in any position, its about linking the scale shapes to the chords and see the order.. C A G E D.. up the fretboard. Walk there land there, slide there, but there it is.

Also, Minor is just a mode. You learn the fretboard relationships between the major and minor... Like the Am pent. is also C pent and F#m pent=A pent... It's the difference of scale definition based on the root chosen. For instance...for the "G-shape".... its the pinky (major) or index (minor) on the 6th string that defines the scale.

I agree that, these days, I am now thinking more in terms of major shapes and forms, rather than "minor ones"... however, I play as many minor keys as ever...  I just understand it from a "major perspective".. Am=C, simply Play C scale a-to-A. Done Any position. Any shape. It matches the the way I know the minor forms anyway.

Easy to hard...Personal order of difficulty ...E-A-C-(D-G)... I agree. D and G are  effing HARD, I can't move whole their forms. I still use the concepts for partial chords and arpeggios. My C shapes are coming along.

5. Still don't really know how this relates to scales.

The system, that I know, links all 5 scales you already know to the respective open chord shape. Play a chord anywhere on the neck and instantly know the scale shapes that work. It is  a methodology based in chord forms but takes it to linking them to scale shapes and then further, linking the scale shapes with lead patterns that extend 3 octaves. Then the series starts taking about music in the second book.


I do not mean to be an advertisement... "Fretboard Logic" series (2 bound books containing 3 volumes plus a DVD) It cost in the neighborhood of $80. Feels pricy yes but most guitarists would benefit somehow with the series. My older DVD was meh, but the new one is likely better.

[Happyorange27]

Lately I've been working the "Bouncing Round the Room" type pull offs.  Also like in Rift too.  There are some sweet ones in Lizards too.  But let's talk about the Bouncing Round the Room ones for a second.  Go look up the tab if you are not familiar.  Basically we are talking about 4 notes in a box. 

Highest note
Pull off
Next lower string high note
Pulloff

Figure out a comfortable place to practice just one position and do it accurately.  It's really quite difficult to do in time at a rapid tempo.

FYI this is going to translate to an arpeggio with 1 diatonic friend note (maybe 2 friends).

Now take those two "higher notes" of (1st and 3rd note) and make them the second and fourth notes of you adjacent pattern.  You just moved up diatonically by about 2 or 3 notes.  No figure out the pattern that fits the scale.  Anyway find all 5 patterns and figure out how to connect them all in any given key.

If you can do this, you will sound like a bad ass i can assure you.  I'm just scratching the surface but it's paying off.

I have a little mp3 to share if anyone wants to here a sample.

I've said enough....

[dabomb]

I would disagree that the majority of your soloing should be arpeggio based as some have stated. Modal soloing is what jambands do 90% of the time. Am I wrong?

[Happyorange27]

I would disagree that the majority of your soloing should be arpeggio based as some have stated. Modal soloing is what jambands do 90% of the time. Am I wrong?

I agree. I think we are just talking about how to tackle those arpeggios when you need to. Really sets the foundation so that you can effortlessly float into modal mode.

[IamWILSON]

I would disagree that the majority of your soloing should be arpeggio based as some have stated. Modal soloing is what jambands do 90% of the time. Am I wrong?

I agree. I think we are just talking about how to tackle those arpeggios when you need to. Really sets the foundation so that you can effortlessly float into modal mode.

Yes, I believe we are all kind of using the term "arpeggios" in the practice of identify chord tones (root, 3rds, 5ths, and sometimes 7ths).  However, even when playing modally, the basis of all minor modes is the tonic, b3, and 5th scale tones regardless of Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian modes (or b5 if using Locrian); and tonic, major 3rd, and 5th scale tones when using major modes (Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian). Obviously to really sound the modes you need to apply the tones that are characteristic to the specific modes, like the #11 in Lydian, b7 of Mixolydian, or maj 6th of Dorian.

[jgibb]

Hey guys so I'm kind of in the same boat here. I have been playing for around 6 years but feel like I haven't improved at all in the past 3 years. I really want to start getting better to become a good improviser. I feel like when I solo a scale over a song, it sounds lame and bland and doesn't contain any rhythm.I also don't really play that fast, which I want to change. What would you guys suggest I practice and do to become a good lead guitar player who knows how to improvise? Should I memorize scales and arpeggios? I would love to be able to make every note sound good, but don't know how to do that. How do guitarists like Jerry and Trey make every single note they play when they're improvising sound good and right? Thanks guys!

[fulltone1989]

Hey guys so I'm kind of in the same boat here. I have been playing for around 6 years but feel like I haven't improved at all in the past 3 years. I really want to start getting better to become a good improviser. I feel like when I solo a scale over a song, it sounds lame and bland and doesn't contain any rhythm.I also don't really play that fast, which I want to change. What would you guys suggest I practice and do to become a good lead guitar player who knows how to improvise? Should I memorize scales and arpeggios? I would love to be able to make every note sound good, but don't know how to do that. How do guitarists like Jerry and Trey make every single note they play when they're improvising sound good and right? Thanks guys!

Personally, I set up a practice schedule based on what my main deficiencies are and how i'd like to improve them.

For instance, my right hand is phunky so I use a metronome and practice modes, different minors and all the triads in each key. That takes about an hour and then afterwards I just work on different chord voicings, because I find myself going back to familiar chord shapes.

There's a famous Charlie Parker or Miles Davis quote that goes something like "Learn your instrument, and then forget everything and play."

I think I butchered it but the basic message I got was to learn the stuff so it's second-nature and you can rip it off at a gig without thinking and losing your place in the band.

[jgibb]

thanks for the input, I guess I need to make a pretty strict practice routine to start seeing some improvements

[manicstarseed]

thanks for the input, I guess I need to make a pretty strict practice routine to start seeing some improvements

Disciplined, focused practice, over time is what will develop you the quickest. It does not have to be daily repetition (slog) of identical exercises but decide what you will practice and for how long and stick to it.

For example , after warming up, you can spend half the time focusing on theory stuff and the other half learning songs.
One day you can focus on chords/progressions/alterations (theory and song) and another day scales/modes (theory and song).

The time you spend on each item depends on the time you have each day and as life has it ... it varies. If you have a half an hr, it doesn't make sense to warm up for 30 min, unless you decide that is what the practice will be that day, and with a metronome, that's valid too. You adjust the durations as required.

Happy Practicing!

Like Happy mentioned focus your practicing on overcoming your weaknesses and you will go far.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Really good info in here - I can relate to what Happy was talking about in Jazz practice as I played in a couple jazz bands and took lessons from a great jazz player in Pittsburgh. We would work through the CAGED system a lot - he would have chord progressions moving through CAGED up and down the neck that I would have to play for 10 minutes straight at the beginning of lessons, if I messed up, I started again. Makes your hand burn!

Someone mentioned some chords are tougher, particularly something like a G shape. I would suggest considering the slight variations in the shape, particularly dropping the 3 on the A string, which sometimes makes the chord too fat or muddy sounding anyway and use the 3 on the B string instead. Try playing every chord in the key within a 4-5 fret span using the various shapes, which is how a pianist learns to play - they don't shift the same shape, as it sounds clunky, they often keep their hand in the same region/register and use different voicings.

Considering this, you can get some really cool stuff happening using something like a C shape E chord, similar to a Cmin7 if you drop the root on the A string (I like to hammer on the 3 on the D string and the 1/R on the B string), then try adding in an A shape D chord, E shape A chord, G shape B chord. Keep in mind you don't need to use all 6 strings and you have a totally different way of thinking about a chord progression.

Once you get there, play through the C shape E Ionian mode and recognize the various arpeggios from the above chords I mentioned. Matching the CAGED chording to the CAGED scale system makes this practical IMO - do the same thing starting in different keys, chord shapes, matching the various scales and you become more mobile - I constantly have to remind myself to move from ones I am more comfortable with to other systems (ie, rather than starting with the E chord in the C shape, do the same exercise starting in the G, A, E and D shapes).

So now that the arpeggios from each chord match up with the scale, you can rest on chord tones from each chord during the song rather than only resting on chord tones from the key your in. I think this is the step, for me at least, where I start to view the 'key' differently - each chord becomes a key, so as (I think Manic mentioned) you can use different scales even in one key, you can expand that across each chord in a progression. This is kinda like Hendrix on Little Wing - each chord is treated like a Key and he mostly uses pentatonic scales over each one.

The other thing that I learned in playing jazz, but certainly never got great at, was viewing chunks of chords as various keys. In a more complex jazz tune, a good player can chunk sets if chords into ii V I's. IIRC the Paper Moon solo section is essentially I, [in between chord I will skip for this], ii9, V, ii9, V I7, [I usually toss a V in here and walk down], IV, V, I. So you can chunk the beginning in the Ionian, but when you get to the I7, the IV chord can be considered a I chord (read: key change), so the I7 is now a V. So this is basically changing from Ionian to Myxolydian for the turnaround.

This idea can be applied to Jam as a simple 'trick' for avoiding being over consonant. Consider playing an E shape minor pentatonic as consonant and slipping into an A shape minor pentatonic a 5th above (basically two frets up - from the original key, slide from a 4 to a 5 on the G string, the 5 is the 'root' of the A shape pentatonic). The A shape pentatonic doesn't have a root note from the actual key, so you never come to a complete cadence. 

Obviously you want to incorporate more colors / chromatic notes and more modes, but this helps me step out of the box I sometimes find myself in, particularly since we often learn rock/blues before we decide we need to get more interesting and dissonant.