More History of Languedoc

[rmolsonguitars]

Guitars have been associated with Languedoc for probably a hundred years. I believe the second largest guitar festival in the world is held in Languedoc.  Paul doesn't have an exclusive for the name...

There is actually no such thing as a Languedoc guitar... just a Languedoc headstock. The offset body was actually copied from from the Starcaster.  When Paul worked for the  Time Guitar Co they copied a few things from the Starcaster even naming one of their guitars the Timecaster. 

I am not calling mine a copy of a Languedoc anymore even though many people do  but have named it an Ollandoc. Mine now all have USA made wiring harnesses by www.bcsguitars.com and Seymour Duncan makes my pickups in there custom shop.  The big market is all the regular Joe's who can't afford a $7,000 to $10,000 guitar and even if they could an individual could not build one for all of them. People have been tickled pink with my new models ... well they never complained much about my first models either.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Hi Olson.

What was the motivation for this post, if you don't mind me asking?

I can't help but write out my reaction. And I've written and re-written it several times because I'm genuinely interested, but feel I need to be honest to my reaction. So I'm going to respond clearly and concisely as possible at risk of seeming confrontational or overly direct.

I can only assume this post was motivated by frustration from catching flack for copying Paul's guitar design. I can understand your frustration and your entitled to feeling that way, but frankly I think your post came off very negatively and some of the points you made don't seem logical to me. I think this completely overshadowed the good points you made.

I think your rationalizing, or making pseudological, or fallacious arguments that sound logical, and projecting your behaviors onto Paul.

For example, you rationalize calling your guitar a Languedoc copy by stating an obscure fact that the geographic region Languedoc was associated with a guitar festival. C'mon - Paul was just using his last name! And if he was stealing the name from the festival, he'd be doing so with hopes of having some financial benefit to his company via the reputation of the festival. But this is clearly also not the case - how many people have even heard of the festival? If you need to state that fact on a Phish forum, you can't believe it would have any benefit to him financially. However, you did take Paul Languedoc's last name - and the name of his company - for your financial benefit. Thus your projecting when you say he stole the name for his benefit. If he was wrong for calling his guitar a Languedoc, why would you call yours a copy?

Then you rationalize building guitars that are structurally as similar to Paul's as you can by stating that the design was not his originally, but belongs to the Fender Starcaster. If you really believed this (and weren't piggybacking on the financial success of the name "Languedoc"), then you would have called your guitar a Starcaster copy. Paul's guitars are quite distinct from a Starcaster aesthetically, in construction, and in quality. He was influenced by the Starcaster - thats common knowledge - but no more so than any 'new' product is influenced by existing products. Its not a rational argument that copying Paul wasn't wrong because Paul was wrong for copying Fender - two wrongs doesn't make a right. Paul put a lot of time into learning to build guitars, the R&D of building what he calls Languedocs after he left Time Co - he absolutely has the right to the Languedoc guitar and name, and there is a "such thing" as a Languedoc guitar. I don't know what you mean by its "just a headstock" - his headstock is in the shape of Vermont - does Vermont own the right to his guitars?

However, I don't mean to suggest your necessarily ethically wrong, even though you used his name and his design. I would only say its really an ethical issue if your claiming the same quality sound and construction at a cheaper price to cut into Paul's market. I don't think you are. Your not claiming to go into the same detail he is in construction - your using a more cost-effective approach that much sacrifice some detail, such as using pre-made wiring harnesses. Your not making a tonal quality comparison, but rather stating your clients have been happy, especially with more recent builds. And, as you state, your market is distinct from Paul's: your market is the average Joe who needs a specialized hollowbody but cannot afford a Languedoc, while his market wants/needs the top-shelf and wouldn't by an RMOlsen instead. Some would argue there a moral obligation to build affordable versions because 1) working musicians have a need for it, and 2) our capitalistic cultural values taking advantage of market demands.

I believe the paragraph above is a logical and reasonable argument to describe your business as ethical without coming off as negative toward Paul. However, I know Paul has an overt and firm stance toward replicas - he says they are "all crap." This is his opinion and we can infer its his moral position that people ought not replicate his guitars because he put in many hours learning the skills of a luthier, R&D designing his guitar, etc. Paul has the right to his opinion of the quality of other instruments and his moral position even if that is what caused you frustration, but he wins if you respond so negatively. I can understand Paul's position: replicas probably cheapen the design he put so much work into, but cheaper replicas are the way of the world since the industrial era.

You said you aren't going to call your builds Languedoc copies anymore, but are you going to continue to build copies of Languedocs? If so, I think it will be important to make rational, ethically-based arguments and handle people who have differences in moral positions and opinions - its an important quality for anyone who puts there name/work in the public domain. If you do continue to make copies, I hope to try one someday. I can't afford a Languedoc right now, I'm always curious about other hollowbodies and I think the more options the better, though I'm thrilled with my Artinger, which is a top-shelf build I got at a great used price and I've heard mixed reviews of RMOlsen guitars (I'd like to make my own opinion), but they usually look great.

[Poster]

Hi RM Olson! Ive owned a couple of your guitars as toys. Ive also hungout with Paul Languedoc several times, when I lived in Vermont. I would suggest you stop before you get yourself into a load of shit. How dare you compare your fucking chinese shit guitars to his hand made guitars? Have you ever played one? Have you met Paul and seen the quality of his work/shop/character? Fucking douche bag.

[Poster]

And your hilarious mention of Languedoc France is pretty delusional, but entertaining. I bet you tell yourself/friends that pantload and they just stand on their spittoon, thank you for being so scholarly. I actually like the Phred guy. At least he can admit his guitars are tribute toys built by chinese under paid labor. I would keep ranting, but I dont really fucking care. People like equator, phred, rm olson are just trying to make a buck. Why not just build some shit in the USA, with all the of unemployed people that are around your area, and make a quality product. fucking shit head redneck asshole

[Poster]

i bet you wouldnt even know how to price out a hand made archtop guitar, made with the finest components by a master luthier. 10,000 for a doc because it takes a long fucking time to be able to put together an instrument of quality and it took 40 years to learn how to build one properly. its not like Paul charges 100k? Hell some archtop builders easily charge 20k? fucking asshole post dude. scamper back to the rocks from whence you came. take your shitty pickups, died fake ebony tailpieces with you!

[Hoody]

Mr. Olson, I presume you're not a copyright attorney.  I suggest you contact one.  I can tell you that your interpretation of the law misses the mark - widely.  Since Paul is in Vermont, and I presume you are not, he would have the option of suing you either in Vt federal court or in the federal court of whatever state you are in.  The law in the Second Circuit (which includes Vt) is quite clear on this issue. 

[No Nice Guy]

I completely agree with Heady here.  Although, I do want to ask something I've been wondering since I found out about the Doc-off market (and bought mine) - Is this a copyright issue, a patent issue, or an IP (Intellectual Property) issue?  Can you really take control of a bodyshape like that?    If I did one with no f-holes, and instead holes like on the G4, would I be in the clear?  What if I only changed the wiring scheme, or the headstock?

Also, if PL really has any legal grounds to sue anyone for this (which I don't believe he's interested in doing - he's aware of the doc-offs according to his website as of at least a year and a half ago, and hasn't gone after anyone that I know of), why doesn't Gibson sue all the people who sell straight LP copies which could very well have come from the same Chinese factory (Agile, Guild, etc)?  Or Fender with all the Strats and Teles everywhere (Warmoth, rondo, etc)?

[Mister Buddy]

I have been lurking on this site since 2009. I logged in today, for the first time, to say the following:

I own an Equator Standard, which is a Languedoc knock off, so it's safe to say that I'm OK with such copies. I'm not at all bothered that R M Olsen makes Languedoc knock offs. I'm not even bothered by what appears to be the shoddy, out-sourced craftsmanship. But I'm hugely bothered by near delusional sanctimony of Olsen's post here. The idea that Languedoc ripped off his design from the Starcaster, or his prestige from some French guitar festival, and that these "facts" make him fair game for Olsen is laughable.

You, sir, are a complete and utter douchebag. I wouldn't buy one of your products if you were the finest luthier on the planet. Fuck you, and fuck the horse you rode in on.

I will now return to lurking.

[No Nice Guy]

Looks like Poster suddenly got really really unpopular...  His applaud/smite is impressive.

[Buffered]

And to top it all off, I thought it was awfully spammy of his "wares"

[Heady Jam Fan]

No Nice Guy -

I've wondered the same thing about knock off Strats and LP' - I don't think its too easy to sue for the shape of the instrument apparently, but maybe it has to do with country of manufacture.

And as far as Poster's Applaud/Smite score, IIRC the admins did that as a joke a little while back

[rmolsonguitars]

Since your post was so long and had so many concerns, I have posted all below with my comment in bold type

What was the motivation for this post, if you don't mind me asking?

To clarify things and I did catch some flack as you call it, but as I told Paul's lawyer, the original proto type I did was not a copy of Paul's guitars.  A guy contacted me about building a proto type and at the time I did not even know what a Languedoc was. Later I realized that the pics he sent and  drawings were those of a guitar made in South America or maybe Central America. Equator? 

Here is the pic he sent me along with a drawing with some changes. Below I will post a pic of the actual finished guitar built to his specs.


I can't help but write out my reaction. And I've written and re-written it several times because I'm genuinely interested, but feel I need to be honest to my reaction. So I'm going to respond clearly and concisely as possible at risk of seeming confrontational or overly direct.

I can only assume (everything is assumed because up til now, you had no facts) this post was motivated by frustration (No I don't have any frustration... to busy and too happy) from catching flack for copying Paul's guitar design. I can understand your frustration and your entitled to feeling that way, but frankly I think your post came off very negatively and some of the points you made don't seem logical to me. I think this completely overshadowed the good points you made.

I think your rationalizing, or making pseudological, or fallacious arguments that sound logical, and projecting your behaviors onto Paul. (way over head and  no need for clarification)

For example, you rationalize calling your guitar a Languedoc copy by stating an obscure fact that the geographic region Languedoc was associated with a guitar festival. ( Not correct.. I was showing that the name was used in conjunction with guitars before Paul was even born. I don't want to call mine a Lang copy... I just did because everyone else was referring to it as such.)  C'mon - Paul was just using his last name! They wanted me not to use the name at all but I don't believe he has an exclusive right to it. The name has been associated with guitars for decades. Right now it is just a marketing thing (keyword) to reach the people who want what they call a Lang copy, replica or clone and there are thousands of people like that. And if he was stealing the name from the festival, he'd be doing so with hopes of having some financial benefit to his company via the reputation of the festival. But this is clearly also not the case - how many people have even heard of the festival (actually more than who have heard of Paul but that means nothing. You would be amazed that how many people have never heard of Phish or a Lang) If you need to state that fact on a Phish forum, you can't believe it would have any benefit to him financially. However, you did take Paul Languedoc's last name - and the name of his company - for your financial benefit. Thus your projecting when you say he stole the name for his benefit. If he was wrong for calling his guitar a Languedoc, why would you call yours a copy?

I still hold to the belief that Paul does not have an exclusive to a name that has been associated with guitars for a hundred years... I did not get an argument from his lawyer over that.

Then you rationalize building guitars that are structurally (my guitars are not structurally similar to Paul's. Paul's body are bent wood sides where mine are solid wood routed to full hollow. My body was not copied from a Lang and looks closer to a Starcaster. See the comparisons in the pic below.)as similar to Paul's as you can by stating that the design was not his originally, but belongs to the Fender Starcaster. If you really believed this (and weren't piggybacking on the financial success of the name "Languedoc" (like I told you, my guitar was not copied after the Lang), then you would have called your guitar a Starcaster copy. Paul's guitars are quite distinct from a Starcaster aesthetically, in construction, and in quality. He was influenced by the Starcaster - thats common knowledge - but no more so than any 'new' product is influenced by existing products"   So your logic applies to Paul but not me or anyone else?  . Its not a rational argument that copying Paul wasn't wrong because Paul was wrong for copying Fender - two wrongs doesn't make a right. Paul put a lot of time into learning to build guitars, the R&D of building what he calls Languedocs after he left Time Co - he absolutely has the right to the Languedoc guitar and name, and there is a "such thing" as a Languedoc guitar. I don't know what you mean by its "just a headstock" - his headstock is in the shape of Vermont - does Vermont own the right to his guitars? (he has a Trademark only on the headstock not on the shape of the body or any other aspect of the guitar. Below are drawings I used to show Paul's lawyer the difference between my headtock and theirs)





His lawyer could only provide proof to me that Paul's headstock is protected under his Trade Mark.  That's fine with me. Paul claimed I was infringing on the headstock Trademark and I was not.

However, I don't mean to suggest your necessarily ethically wrong, even though you used his name and his design. I would only say its really an ethical issue if your claiming the same quality sound and construction at a cheaper price to cut into Paul's market. I don't think you are. Your not claiming to go into the same detail he is in construction - your using a more cost-effective approach that much sacrifice some detail, such as using pre-made wiring harnesses.(What's a premade harness?  Mine are handmade by www.bcsguitars.com   They are made of USA parts and with metal shield wire and Seymour Duncan builds my pickups. Your not making a tonal quality comparison, but rather stating your clients have been happy, especially with more recent builds. And, as you state, your market is distinct from Paul's: your market is the average Joe who needs a specialized hollowbody but cannot afford a Languedoc, while his market wants/needs the top-shelf and wouldn't by an RMOlson instead. Some would argue there a moral obligation to build affordable versions because 1) working musicians have a need for it, and 2) our capitalistic cultural values taking advantage of market demands.

I believe the paragraph above is a logical and reasonable argument to describe your business as ethical without coming off as negative toward Paul. However, I know Paul has an overt and firm stance toward replicas - he says they are "all crap." This is his opinion and we can infer its his moral position that people ought not replicate his guitars because he put in many hours learning the skills of a luthier, R&D designing his guitar, etc. Paul has the right to his opinion of the quality of other instruments and his moral position even if that is what caused you frustration, but he wins if you respond so negatively. I can understand Paul's position: replicas probably cheapen the design he put so much work into, but cheaper replicas are the way of the world since the industrial era.

You said you aren't going to call your builds Languedoc copies anymore, but are you going to continue to build copies of Languedocs?(no I am building Ollandocs...  You could say its a  'new' product  influenced by some existing products that were influenced by a Lang that was influenced by a Starcaster.) If so, I think it will be important to make rational, ethically-based arguments and handle people who have differences in moral positions and opinions - its an important quality for anyone who puts there name/work in the public domain. If you do continue to make copies, I hope to try one someday. I can't afford a Languedoc right now, I'm always curious about other hollowbodies and I think the more options the better, though I'm thrilled with my Artinger, which is a top-shelf build I got at a great used price and I've heard mixed reviews of RMOlson guitars (I'd like to make my own opinion), but they usually look great.

Here are some pics of current models.

[Poster]

Fucking Chinese shit guitars with duncans in them. You can say whatever you want to man. And those fucking Chinese tail pieces are most certainly not ebony. Its probably died mahogany.

Sounds like PL already attempted to stop you from making money off his design/name etc Fucking scum bag. We should keep this discussion going with "RM OLSON GUITARS" all up in these responses, so the SEO for his guitars brings potential buyers here to read this shit.

Can we go back to how Ive owned 2 of your shitty guitars and they were a fucking joke? Ive owned both Equator and a Phred instruments guitars also, and yours were the shittiest of all, just based on the weak CNC quality, plastic wood, plastic binding, = shit. At least Phred tries to mix it up a bit, doing some semi hybrid designs. Your just a straight slave owning piece of shit con artist.

Those fucking glue plastic guitars a pieces of shit. You could spend a fortune trying to set one up properly, but then you'd just have a shitty guitar with a good setup. Hell when I looked down in the f holes on the last one I came across there was some gnarly routing work done in there. Just ridiculous.

Knocking off Gibson guitars is pretty shitty already, but really, cmon you momo, ripping off a respected luthiers work because some guy in South America did, is fucking WEAK. And just so you know D. Colem*n is a piece of shit too, and only after selling hundreds of shitty made guitars, figured out how to put out some decent stuff, thats still basically just a cheap knock off of the real thing.

[Stecks]

Fender re-released the Starcaster last year

[Stecks]

Guitars have been associated with Languedoc for probably a hundred years. I believe the second largest guitar festival in the world is held in Languedoc.  Paul doesn't have an exclusive for the name...

There is actually no such thing as a Languedoc guitar... just a Languedoc headstock. The offset body was actually copied from from the Starcaster.  When Paul worked for the  Time Guitar Co they copied a few things from the Starcaster even naming one of their guitars the Timecaster. 

I am not calling mine a copy of a Languedoc anymore even though many people do  but have named it an Ollandoc. Mine now all have USA made wiring harnesses by www.bcsguitars.com and Seymour Duncan makes my pickups in there custom shop.  The big market is all the regular Joe's who can't afford a $7,000 to $10,000 guitar and even if they could an individual could not build one for all of them. People have been tickled pink with my new models ... well they never complained much about my first models either.

Ship me one for a few weeks and I'll let people know what I think